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For One Anti-Gay Woman, 30 Days Is Not Time EnoughIn the end, Patrick wonders if Kati entered the project with an open mind. “She did these at-home interviews that we didn’t see, that we didn’t know about until we saw the episode on DVD,” he says. “But it didn’t seem like she was coming into it to explore beliefs as much as it was to defend her beliefs. So, and I think because most of her objections were religious in nature, there’s no way that was going to change in 30 days.”
As for Spurlock, he says that the show has not yet planned the topics of its next season (if there is one), but says they’re open to more gay issues. He also vows that they will continue to avoid sensationalism at all costs--despite some pressure to the contrary. “There’s always [ideas] that get thrown out that deal with, like, the porn industry or things like that,” he says. “That will be officially the season we jump the shark, and when we go down that path, the final episode of whatever that season is will be me learning how to ride a motorcycle where I can recreate the Happy Days episode where I will physically jump the shark in my final episode. That’s when I’m like, the show’s pretty done.” “Same Sex Parenting” airs Tuesday night on FX 10 PM ET/PT.
Submitted by on Sun, 2008-06-22 21:40. |
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Not surprising
Plenty of people with "my way is the only true way" religious beliefs are not swayed by exposure to other beliefs for example. There are plenty of absolutist religious believers who know, and are even friends with, members of other faiths and still think that they're wrong even if they're "nice people".
So why should this be different? Some people are so fundamentally opposed to homosexuality that for them it's not a question of whether gays are decent, honorable people. The fact that they're gay is still wrong. Period. And that belief won't change simply by showing them that gays are not monsters.
I know it's frustating, but to me not very surprising
excellent post
Great post---and interesting links. I think it's true that it really is almost impossible to make a reasonable appeal to someone who holds a set of strong (if narrow-minded) religious beliefs. Logic simply does not enter into the equation in a discussion with these individuals; a rational, well-developed train of thought makes no impression whatsoever. It's as if they were to admit that one aspect of their system of belief is incorrect, their world would implode and they would be left foundering in total confusion. I've seen this time and time again, in conversation with my brother who is an ardent young-earth creationist.
As for the "if you don't believe the same as I do, I cannot be your friend" line, well, that does make sense to me also---depending on how important the things are that are in mutual disagreement. You can be completely pleasant to such a person, and deal with them very well on a superficial level, but what basis is there for a true and lasting friendship? Again, I'm thinking of my brother here; we used to have a good relationship, but over the past ten years it has withered away to the point where there's almost nothing left; a few pleasantries exchanged a couple of times a year, and that's it. Frankly, it all comes down to his extreme fundamentalist mind-set; how close can I be, after all, to someone who absolutely despises everything I am and everything I believe?
I'm like a superhero, with no powers or motivation...
hmmm
They say one sin is as bad as another
ugh
see, I only ask that because these religious nuts tend to think that the only people who should raise children should be a man and a woman...and it really bothers me when i hear of these truly sick people - - aha, for example...that damn man in Austria (i think that was it, correct me if i am wrong) who raped his daughter repeatedly, had children with her and had her locked up in his basement for XX years (forgot the number of years)
Yet.....they see it as a sin and probably excuse it to some weird ass mind boggling level to not make it seem as loathsome as two same sex parents raising a child. "Everyone sins, you must forgive" and blah blah blah. i have no clue.just so damn frustrating to me.
Well, actually, that's not
i wasn't...
nah, i wasn't trying to make them worse or whatever....basically, just me venting a bit even if i didn't make complete sense....eh, it happens.
Yes, but...
Problem is, the Fred Phelps type of person is perhaps more commonly found than I would like to believe. Wasn't it (disgraced gay-scandal minister) Ted Haggard who, when asked about gay rights, said that one might as well talk about "murderers' rights"? (Shoot, I can't find the quote now, but I remember one prominent minister did say that.) There are a lot of rabidly anti-gay Christians in the US, unfortunately.
I don't want to tar all Christians with the same brush, however. I know that there are many Christians who don't think homosexuality is a problem at all---that the verses against it in the NT have simply been taken out of context. Heck, I was brought up a Lutheran myself (though I don't regularly attend church anymore); the ELCA may not be of one mind regarding homosexuality, but at least a portion of the members don't have a problem with homosexuality. And of course there are churches that are even more liberal than the Lutherans in this respect...
Sigh... but then, you still have the more fundamentalist religious types spouting all this horrible anti-gay rhetoric, and from what I can see there really is no way to have a logical, dispassionate conversation with them...
I'm like a superhero, with no powers or motivation...
I was wondering, how did the
"I can be nice to you, but
"I can be nice to you, but I can’t be your friend."
I have never understood this attitude on either side of the aisle. Some things are so bad that they warrant not even being civil to another.
I realize that this was a constructed situation where you were forced to stick with people you potentially wouldn't choose to stick with in a normal real life situation, but I have seen this attitude voiced in other circumstances too (for example by Dan Savage on Bill Maher's in regards to interacting with people in the South).
It would definitely be interesting to see how the woman would explain duplicious behavior like entering the home of somebody just to have a better case against them with no intention of ever changing or just questioning her believes. Shouldn't you question a religion that allows you to be immoral provided the side you are acting against is "evil" rather than a religion that demands you hold yourself to the highest standards? Me thinks somebody missed some of the most essential teaching that Jesus brought to the table.
I think Dennis's remarks
I think Dennis's remarks were completely warranted & appropriate.
If someone holds beliefs that denigrate your very core, why should you call them a "friend"?
I'm not saying people shouldn't be civil to each other, but calling someone like Kati a friend only sanctions their bigotry.
I didn't mean to say
You misread my post. I didn't mean to say that one should be friends with people like her, just the opposite, I wonder why one would even try to be civil to her.
To me there are people I disagree with on inessential things, which means that we can still be friends or be civil with each other. But if I disagree with somebody on something truly essential why would I be civil with them?
Let's say you are in a public place of some sort and somebody says something truly disturbing or offensive. To me, there are really only two appropriate options, either confront them or leave immediately in protest. Not to say "Let's agree and disagree".
(yes I realize doing this 30 program was a way of confrontation, but I was talking about statements like this in general)
Some people will never change
One Word
It all comes down to one word, and this word is the biggest impediment to full-fledged gay equality in our lifetimes: faith. It's extraordinarily simple, and I know this because I was raised in this environment. A majority of Christians believe by faith that the Bible is the literal word of God. Not inspired by God through devoted followers, but literally the word of God. If that's true, then there's no debate about any issue addressed in the Bible. There are a couple of verses that clearly say homosexuality is wrong, and a couple more interpreted that way. And since God said it how can there possibly be a debate.
In that context it would be a total shock if 30 days with a wonderful gay family would change Kati's mind. You can't so readily destroy a lifeime's worth of faith building. Logic isn't a component at all. If God says being gay is wrong then it's wrong. You can't argue against a belief or position based on the concept of faith. Faith trumps everything else. "God said", and therefore there's nothing more to say. I was raised in a very religious Lutheran family, but thank goodness my church never got into social issues, and I don't remember a single mention of homosexuality. And fortunately, I've always been a very independent thinker, and I discounted literalism very early on, and never had the slightest bit of problem with being gay.
I've tried MANY times to counteract the literalism argument with Christians, almost invariably to no avail. One of my most intelligent co-workers is one of the greatest people I know in many ways. He and his wife have adopted three orphans from Haiti and Africa, and he is the nicest, most considerate person I know. But he believes the earth was formed about 6000 BC, or whenever the biblical calculation has it. He doesn't understand how the science works, but he's just quietly confident that it will be revealed someday because that's how God said it occurred. Literalist Christians will be the last group to accept gay equality. It will be slowly evolutionary, and experiences like Kati's will be part of it. A seed has been sown, which may only manifest itself in something like rejecting gay jokes from friends, or not being so quick to see us as "others". It's important to keep in mind that millions of Christians don't have a literalist view, but those that do will not be swayed. It will be their children or grandchildren who finally come around.
Problem is...
...those literalist Christians (and other religions) repeat and teach these fallacies to their children, so the cycle repeats itself--a form of child abuse, in my opinion.
Check out my blog: http://radicalsexy.blogspot.com/
The problem is not religion, though....
Rather, it's the shortcomings and fears of the people who believe in the religion. I believe that most all religions are alternate ways of getting to the same point, and that point is at its core a utopian one of brotherly love, sacrifice, principle, and self-improvement. Unfotunately, it's often interpreted by people who impose on it their own biases, weaknessess, predispositions, etc. If the Bible is not taken literally, but interpreted for its message, then following Christianity would lead to a beautiful world. But in the hands of Jerry Falwell and his ilk, plus those who feel the need to be literal out of fear and/or ignorance, and those who impose their own self-centered worldview, it becomes something else entirely.
South Park had a great episode where one of the kids went into the future, where religion no longer existed, but atheism was universal. Nonetheless, there continued to be idiocy and war. People feel the need to organize their lives around something that gives them order and a sense of belonging (which is what we gay people often do, including here in the AE community). But different atheism organizations developed in this future, each looking at the world somewhat differently. And, of course, each atheism group viewed the others as dangerous heretics. It's human nature that's at fault, not religion. There are more than enough reasons for prejudice and hate among ethnicity, nationalism, greed, ambition, social conventions, who makes the best potato salad, etc.
The problem with people like Kati
is that they believe what they are told to believe by those they see as their religious authority.
Kati, like most evangelicals I know, are too busy or too lazy to read scripture for themselves. Most may be able to pull quotes from The Bible but are hard pressed to tell you what came before or after that scriptural quote. they have no concept of context because, on Sunday, "Brother Bill" told them it meant "this" and that is all the confirmation they require.
I have literally proven to several co-workers that actually call themselves "rightwing,Neo-con,evangelical, Christian, conservatives" that they are not, at all, that way. But, because "Brother Cecil" said they were, well, then that's what they were.
Unfortunately, these are the
Dennis you've just identified why religion is impossible
Be careful to not do the same thing in reverse
David - I think it's equally invalid to say definitively that there is no God or no afterlife on the one hand, or that the Christian God is the only way on the other hand. The truth is, none of us "knows", and there's simply no logical way around that. Kati has faith that her religion teaches her the truth, and you have "faith" that there is nothing beyond this lifetime. Logically, neither can be proven, even just a little bit, and so both have to be considered simply belief systems.
I've been on a spiritual quest my whole life, and have painstakingly made my way to a perception of ultimate reality that I believe more strongly than others I have considered. I have no problem if there is nothing beyond this life, and we decompose to nothing. But there is no more proof of that than anything else, and my investigations point strongly to a life that existed before this one, and will exist after this one. Actually, if there is any sort of "proof" in any direction, it actually points in that direction. I have no interest in proselytizing whatever, since each person must find his own path, so I won't go into any detail. But I just did have to say that atheism is no more valid logically than theism of any type. They both attempt to understand and define ultimate reality, and there is simply no way to know what that ultimate reality is.
Baby steps Kati, Baby steps
I thought she was Mormon?
I thought she was Mormon? And Mormons specfically believe that when you talk to in private payer God he talks back. That is the whole idea of the prophet John Smith that he received a message from God and so came the book Mormon with supercedes/adds to the bible. I believe she even mentioned somewhere in the episode that had talked to God and received confirmation that this was the path she should follow.
Arguing with a Mormon is likely even harder than arguing with a fundamentalist scripturist.
Worms and fear
To address David's last comment for a second: Insisting that this body/life is all there is (and then WORMS!) seems to me no less strident or lacking in love than those who throw the oxymoronic term "God-fearing" around and preach fire and brimstone.
Religion is certainly problematic, to say the least. But spirituality is, imho, essential. And determining the difference between the two is the prime directive.
Love the blog. Worship the blog. But do not fear the blog.
I bet I could live with fundamentalis Christians for 30 days...
Pft! 30 days is nothing...
I hope I never run into Kati
Anybody who would deny homes to children who need homes, despite all facts -- those she's observed herself and the scientific record -- is a social retard and deserves ZERO respect, let alone common courtesy.
Discussing her religious justifications as even plausibly acceptable for misguided reasons of "social programming" is galling, to say the least.
Whatever Kati's reasons are, religious or based on horoscopes or the nature of toejams, she's an enemy, sworn to "advocate" against certain children because she doesn't like step-parents or adopted parents or foster parents who are gay or lesbian.
No quarter must be given, no mercy for supremacist hets. They are quite simply wrong, and their idiotic supremacist beliefs allow them to propagate "evil" in the world. They are disgusting, blocking turds slowing the evolution of the human species. They need flushing. Don't play nice with shit.
If it follows through and shows up anywhere as an anti-gay-parenting "advocate", at least no one will have to waste any time being nice to it.
Human beings, including me, are not as far from barbarism as we pretend we are, look around. One cannot coddle enemies, ever.
Actually, I hope I never run
Yeah....
GLAAD Action Alert About 30 Days
For those so disposed, the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) has an alert out about this show, asking people to take action.
The episode also features a defamatory statement by Peter Sprigg of the "Family" Research Council, an anti-gay organization: "Homosexuality is associated with higher rates of sexual promiscuity, sexually transmitted diseases, mental illness, substance abuse, domestic violence, and child sexual abuse, and those are all reasons for us to be concerned about placing children into that kind of setting."
There is no credible scientific research that backs Sprigg's claims - and much that disputes them - but the episode presents his unchallenged assertions as if they were facts and offers no credible social science experts or child health authorities to challenge Sprigg's assertions.
The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association, the Child Welfare League of America, and many other child health and social services authorities who support parenting by qualified lesbian and gay parents dispute Sprigg's claims.
GLAAD, the Family Equality Council and Children Of Lesbians And Gays Everywhere (COLAGE) are urging their members and the community to contact FX Networks and 20th Century Fox, to express their concerns over providing a platform for such inaccurate, misleading claims by the "Family" Research Council.
Community members who want to should let FX Networks know that it is irresponsible and unacceptable to put forth such damaging, defamatory assertions about lesbian and gay parents and, worse, to refuse to include the voices of credible experts to dispute them.
GLAAD, the Family Equality Council and COLAGE honor the gay and lesbian parents and their children who are featured in this episode for sharing the real stories of their lives, and especially Dennis and Thomas and their family for opening up their home and the hearts and minds of millions through their participation on 30 Days.
FX Networks:
Nick Grad
Executive Vice President of Original Programming
(310) 369-0949
ngrad@fxnetworks.com
Chuck Saftler
Executive Vice President of Programming
(310) 369-0949
csaftler@fxnetworks.com
Scott Seomin (used to work for GLAAD)
Vice President of Public Relations
(310) 369-0938
scott.seomin@fxnetwork.com
http://www.glaad.org/media/release_detail.php?id=4459
I really enjoyed the show
Let's Not Get Hung Up On Kati.
honestly sad but hardly unexpected
Problem: "Experts" on gays biggots w/ unsubstantiated claims