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AE: I want you to compare the phenomenon of the two films, Making Love and Brokeback Mountain. I'm not talking about the critical reaction, but the social one.
BS: I think in the 23-24 years intervening, society has changed considerably in its attitudes toward gay people. And it's mostly been due to the proliferation of gay characters on television. Gay characters come into the home. So people have become aware of the fact that gay people exist. In the days of Making Love, a lot of people weren't aware.

The idea that even the all-American guy could be gay, that was very threatening to people. It's still threatening, but at least they understand that it's possible.

AE: I'm struck by this organized counter-assault in the right-wing media attacking Brokeback Mountain. Was there this sort of concerted conservative backlash against Making Love?
BS: No. We would hear a little, but that didn't bother me. There wasn't an organized frontal attack. The right wasn't really formed yet. It was the early Reagan years.

AE: Was Making Love banned anywhere, like Brokeback has been?
BS: No. But here's a funny aside. Salt Lake City. The highest grossing shows there were during the lunch hour. They were always filled, and all these single guys with wedding rings. The night shows, forget it. But the lunch shows, watch out!

AE: With Brokeback I think the right knows we're driving home the wedge. Because of your movie and all the movies since, we're getting into Middle America . With Making Love, they maybe didn't have to worry as much, because the audience wasn't ready to embrace it, to have their minds opened.
BS: Many audiences weren't ready for Making Love.

We test-marketed the movie four times before it opened. And three of the times, it was straight audiences. When we tested it with straight audiences, it was the same thing every time the guys kissed. People didn't walk out, but there were groans, a real audible reaction. So we knew that people were uncomfortable with that.

The fourth screening was an all-gay audience. And when that moment, the place just broke out into applause and cheering. Totally contradictory reactions.

To the credit of the producer and the director and the studio, they didn't change a frame of the film based on these initial reactions.

AE: Was that the reaction across the nation?
BS: I was the only one connected with the film who was "out" publicly. So Fox sent me around the country on a promotional tour. I went to a theater on the day it opened. There was a huge line, eighty percent young straight couples. I was thinking to myself, "Do they know what this film is about?" Fox had been kind of all over the place in selling the movie.

So I went in the theater, 600 seats, packed, and the movie comes on. And gradually, the guys start to show physical affection. And you could hear waves of discomfort in the theater, as people started to fix on what was going on in the movie. Finally, there's the scene where the guys actually kiss. And it was like a bomb went off in the theater. There was a stream of people walking out. "Oh, my God, what is this! I can't watch this, it's horrifying!"

AE: There must have been some positive reaction from straight people?
BS: Oh, yeah! They had focus groups after the test screenings, and we found, just like with Brokeback, the strongest positive reactions were from gay men and straight women. They were very positive on the film. They related to the Kate Jackson character, and they felt sad for her that she lost the guy she loved. But they were very moved by the film, and they understood and applauded the statement it was making.

I have a whole stack of mail from people, gay and straight, who saw the film and were somehow affected, allowed them to come out to their parents, or be more comfortable with themselves, and that in itself made the whole experience worthwhile.

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