Crossing the Gay Color Lines

This was a very good interview. I liked the way they got into the complexity of the Isaiah Washington situation.

By coincidence, Oscar-nominated actor Terrence Howard has just announced that he doesn't "agree" with homosexuality, but, because he's a "sinner" too, he can't judge.

http://www.towleroad.com/2007/03/terrence_howard.html

It's not as bad as the others' comments, but can I tell you how sick and tired I am of "Christians" saying they don't "agree" with homosexuality; just tell like it is: you're an ignorant bigot and you don't approve.

I commend AfterElton for such a long overdue article. Please keep it on the front page as a permanent link. I also hope you folks continue to shine light on whereever there is ignorance, whether it be by the gay community or communities of color.

It's a shame that leaders (especially the respective medias - something rarely mentioned) on both sides haven't built bridges to strengthen our respective struggles. Sure, there are differences, but they are outweighed by the similarities. We're stronger together than we are apart.

This is what I took away from reading the article "Crossing The Gay Color Line"

1) Blacks own the civil rights struggle and it's still painful for them - so stop using it as an analogy.

2) There were no gays/lesbians or white people helping blacks with the civil rights movement.

3) White gays don't acknowledge black people's pain.

4) White gay men can hide (or pass as straight) but a black man can't hide his race.

5) White gays are men of privilege because of their skin color.

6) Isaiah Washington didn't get a fair treatment in the media (didn't bring up his "gay role")

7) Blacks (Noah's Arc)can't get on the cover of Advocate but white men (Dante's Cove) can.

8) Black men are fine with homosexuality.

9) The down low is wide spread and accepted.

10) Black homophobia is new.

11) White gays don't care about race issues.

12) White gays love Shirley Q. Liquor.

13) White gay men won't pick up black gay men in bars.

QTC

what I learned by reading QTC's post. People see what they want to see. Including QTC.

Hee... I don't agree with Christianity, so I don't mind Terrence not agreeing with my homosexuality. To play fair, people should set up ex-Christian camps to deprogram them as well.

CY,

We're in agreement re: QTC.

QTC,

You're part of the problem, not the solution.

Maybe you're angry b/c you recognize yourself in what the panel is saying.

If these are the points being made, QTC... I agree with some of them, and disagree with some:

1) Blacks own the civil rights struggle and it's still painful for them - so stop using it as an analogy.

THERE IS SOMETHING UNIQUE ABOUT THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA. I SEE NO PROBLEM ACKNOWLEDGING THAT.

2) There were no gays/lesbians or white people helping blacks with the civil rights movement.

THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG. WHITE LIBERAL ACTIVISTS ACTIVELY SUPPORTED BLACK PEOPLE. SOME OF THEM WERE EVEN KILLED FOR IT (FREEDOM SUMMER MURDERS).

3) White gays don't acknowledge black people's pain.

I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY SOME TRUTH TO THAT. THERE'S A 'WE DON'T ATTACK OUR OWN' MENTALITY ON ALL SIDES THOUGH.

4) White gay men can hide (or pass as straight) but a black man can't hide his race.

THEY SURE CAN. ASK ALL THE CLOSETED REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS.

5) White gays are men of privilege because of their skin color.

THEY ARE. BEING GAY DOESN'T MAKE THEM LESS WHITE.

6) Isaiah Washington didn't get a fair treatment in the media (didn't bring up his "gay role")

WRONG. WASHINGTON GOT OFF LIGHTLY. HE GOT TO KEEP HIS JOB. REMEMBER, HARASSMENT ON THE BASIS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS ILLEGAL IN CALIFORNIA.

7) Blacks (Noah's Arc)can't get on the cover of Advocate but white men (Dante's Cove) can.

IT PROBABLY IS A BIT HARDER TO GET BLACK CELEBRITIES ON THE COVER. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, BUT HARDER.

8) Black men are fine with homosexuality.

SOME ARE. MANY ARE NOT.

9) The down low is wide spread and accepted.

SURE. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. IT'S CLOSETED. YOU CAN'T CONDEMN WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

10) Black homophobia is new.

I'D SAY IT ACTUALLY WAS "NEW" WHEN THE CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS ARRIVED IN AFRICA. BUT THAT WAS A COUPLE CENTURIES AGO.

11) White gays don't care about race issues.

MOST AMERICANS DO CARE ABOUT RACE ISSUES. HOWEVER, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE ON THE SAME SIDE. SAME WITH GAYS.

12) White gays love Shirley Q. Liquor.

NO.

13) White gay men won't pick up black gay men in bars.

THIS IS COMMON ENOUGH. BUT I'M NOT SURE WHAT THEY EXPECT US TO DO. YOU CAN'T MAKE A WHITE GUY WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH A BLACK GUY. THEY EITHER WANT TO OR THEY DON'T.

Like I said people read things in the way they want to read them. And, John, all caps are considered bad ettiquette.

CY, I wanted to make my responses clear from QTC's original text. Since these boards don't have quoting boxes, I made the decision to write the response in caps.

If you're offended...um...yeah, too bad. I don't apologize because it's nitpicky and petty.

There seems to be some confusion from what I had posted on March 12 5:36 PM.

To be clear these were points made by the men interviewed.

I have not stated my view(s) or opinions.

Here is my previous post complete with quotes from the article.

This is what I took away from reading the article "Crossing The Gay Color Line"

1)Blacks own the civil rights struggle and it's still painful for them - so stop using it as an analogy."

"They aren't acknowledging the tremendous pain of the civil-rights struggle, and they aren't acknowledging the differences.- Patrik Ian Polk"

2)There were no gays/lesbians or white people helping blacks with the civil rights movement.

Polk said. "So when the gay community continues to reference that, it just brings up all these painful issues and memories. And it doesn't necessarily help to encourage the black community to have these conversations."

3)White gays don't acknowledge black people's pain.

"They aren't acknowledging the tremendous pain of the civil-rights struggle-Patrik Ian Polk"

4)White gay men can hide (or pass as straight) but a black man can't hide his race.

Tori Fixx, a music producer, hip-hop artist (Pick up the Mic) and DJ, points to one of the most glaring of those differences …” one that doesn't have to do with history. "Gay men can conceal their identity to get ahead," Fixx said. "But black men …¦ you wear that every day you leave the front door. It's there on display whether you want it to be there or not."

5)White gays are men of privilege because of their skin color.

"White gay people are just as privileged as white straight people. Patrik Ian Polk"

6)Isaiah Washington didn't get a fair treatment in the media (didn't bring up his "gay role")

"Taylor (Kevin E. Taylor) found the media coverage of the Washington affair
two-dimensional; the media barely mentioned Washington's groundbreaking role as a gay character in Spike Lee's 1996 film Get on the Bus"

7)Blacks (Noah's Arc)can't get on the cover of Advocate but white men (Dante's Cove) can.

Polk also sees the exclusiveness of white images as an issue. "With Noah's Arc, for example …¦ during the first season of that show, we got no covers of any of the national gay magazines," he said. "Meanwhile you had Dante's Cove [a program airing on here! with a predominantly white cast] on the cover of almost all of them. And we have hot guys on Noah's Arc! …¦ We've got the eye candy if that's what it's about."

8)Black men are fine with homosexuality.

"I think a lot of black men are fine with homosexuality," said (Lee) Daniels

9)The down low is wide spread and accepted.

"The DL (downlow) is so powerful and so widespread that I can't even begin to articulate it. It is cool and accepted that men are sleeping with men. I think that no one would have a statistic for that. It's so rampant, it's wild." (Lee) Daniels

10)Black homophobia is new.

Taylor believes that the notion of black homophobia is something new. "The current strain of homophobia or fear of gay people in the black community is probably a latter 20th century construct," he said.

11)White gays don't care about race issues.

"The truth of the matter is white gay people don't really care about racist and racial issues," Polk said.

12)White gays love Shirley Q. Liquor.

Part of the issue, McCullom suggests, is the gay community's inability to even recognize racism when it exists. He gives the example of Shirley Q. Liquor, a white drag queen, who performs as a black female character in full makeup with a heavy …” and questionable …” accent. Black activists have been protesting the routine for years, arguing that it is an offensive caricature reminiscent of blackface minstrel shows.
"And the white guys don't think there's a problem with it,"(Rod) McCullom said. "They just think it's hilarious."

13)White gay men won't pick up black gay men in bars.

Daniels related a recurring theme with his gay, African American friends: That white gay men were perfectly happy to have sex with them in the dark, but didn't want to be seen with them in public. He also explained: "I have gone to clubs, and not once, not twice, not 10 times, not 20 times, but many times throughout West Hollywood …” where it's simply not [OK to be black] …” you would get the once-around."
Polk too, has had similar experiences at clubs. "If I go to a predominantly white gay club, the men just aren't really interested," he said. "I call it the invisible man syndrome." People try to explain their lack of interest by claiming it's "just a preference," but Polk pointed out, "it's not really a preference to exclude an entire group of people based on the color of their skin."

I can't speak for others, but I don't think you just made it up, QTC.

It's your interpretation of and focus upon the actual text. Others might come up with a different list of what stood out for them. However, interpretation can lead to communication.

And, as I was trying to convey (apparently, I didn't do a very good job of of it), rather than poo-poo your list of conclusions, lets use it as a segway into the "meat" of the discussion. There's lot in this article that we can and should discuss. I agree with many of the points they made. And I disagree with some.

Re: the reaction thus far...

It seems there's an acknowledgment that this discussion is long overdue. And then, conversely, there's also a move towards: "OK, we heard these three folks' point of view, lets talk about something more politically correct now." It seems rather contradictory to me.

Well said John.

Some quotes I found interesting and some brief comments/thoughts:

"White gay people are just as privileged as white straight people."

Huh? That's a dialog killer if there ever was one.

"Ultimately, Polk was told point blank by an editor of Genre, a gay men's magazine, that the publishers didn't want African Americans on the cover because they believe covers featuring African Americans won't sell."

That's discouraging. I thought the men of Noah's Ark were absolutely beautiful. And even though the show could be a bit silly at times I found the first season an absolute joy to watch. It just represented so much. The truly ground breaking shows for gay people will be those where minorities are in the majority.

"White evangelicals put fear in the pulpit. …¦ We were never ostracized from our community [before then]."

I don't believe this for a single moment. Homophobia has deep roots in any culture. And how to explain the long history of the "down-low". It's cultural partner is the obscene misogyny of rap/hip-hop. They the two main components of the cult of the macho man.

"There's just as much racism within the gay community as anywhere else. You would think gay people would be less racist, but they're just as much."

This is absolutely true. I think is may be even more true here in the white middle of the country.

"Fixx believes that gay men …” who often seem predisposed to judge the image rather than the human being behind the image …” may be uniquely positioned to fall prey to racism."

An excellent insight.

"Fixx sees the answer as something simple: compassion. "If we can pay attention just a little bit to each other's struggles or stories, I think that will start to bring about change," he offered. "Once we allow ourselves to care about others just enough …¦ maybe we can find a way to get out of this together."

I agree but this is also the reason we wind up fighting each other. It is often difficult to spare compassion when so little is shown by the world at large (either through benign neglect or outright prejudice).

And regarding gay folks drawing parallels with the African American civil rights movement... I can easily imagine how gay people drawing such parallels could feel like the civil rights struggle was being co-opted. As a white gay man I am satisfied to let African Americans draw any such parallels. They are closer to the history.

All in all this was a great article and I'm glad it was posted even though I'm sure it (and the comments) perplexed the obsessively politically correct.

I would rather just poo-poo the list as lazy. I don't feel the need to defend an article that is selective read for ones own hang ups. I prefer to read them the good and the bad in the context of which they are given. That's the bare minimum required for an honest debate on anything, or else it's just framing and talking points. We already get that enough from the GOP and Democrats.

Oh, and before I forget if you start off with manipulative language like claiming someone is being politically correct for calling you on bs'ing what was written, then you aren't interested in a conversation. Conversations aren't accusations or accusatory language meant to label anyone who disagrees with you. Nice try, but try again. peace.

about Shirley Q. Liquor, I always hear so much protesting about him, but everyone seems to forget that RuPaul, perhaps the most visible gay entertainer on the planet, used him on his Red Hot album. A black gay drag entertainer enjoyed the act enough to put him on his album. It seems like whites are more offended than blacks are.

About the "white men don't pick up black men at a bar", it goes both ways. I am personally not attracted to black men, if that makes me racist because I'm not sexually attracted to black guys, then it's your problem. I generally go for white guys who are in my age group (25-35), it's the type of guy I feel most attracted to. I have plenty of black friends who feel the same way about white guys, they just aren't attracted to us. Why is it okay if a black guy doesn't want me, but vice versa and it's horrible? You shouldn't be forced to date anyone you're not attracted to. I prefer cubs and bears and know a lot of gay boys who won't look at me twice for my size (I'm a size 36 and weigh 180 lbs, which makes me as good as an exploding blob to many of the club-hopping types), preferences are preferences, and while I wouldn't rule out dating a black guy, I can't say I've encountered one that I've fallen for.

I am thrilled that this article is here for discussion. I live in New Zealand and so am a little bit seperated from the media discussion over Isaiah and Tim's comments (I have only found coverage on this in American media so far actaully), but as a mix-raced gay man (one white parent, one black parent)I feel that this post has a lot of relevance to me personally.
The more discussion we have in our communities, the better off we will all be.
It's late here so for now I'll just comment on John's most recent comment - how attraction to one race doesn't automatically make you are racist. For the longest time I was more or less just attracted to white guys and now more recently I am most instanly attracted to those of South Asian and Arab descent. Ultimately, it comes down to teh other guy and his personality, but as far as instant attract goes, sure, I have preferences. Much in teh same way that I hve certain kinds of fruit (pardon the pun) over others, and I don't begrudge others who arent instantly attracted to me for my skin colour. We can still be friends, we can still interact in other meaningful ways....we don't have to be husbands.

Personally I couldn't give a good crap if a white guy wants to have sex with me or not but the rest of the article made good sense.

"A black gay drag entertainer enjoyed the act enough to put him on his album. It seems like whites are more offended than blacks are."

I'm so tired of people trying to justify prejudice by bringing up the support of one person or a small group of people who are a member of the targeted group. I see this all the time. Rosie O'Donnell did this when she asked Asian audience members if her "ching chong" comments were offensive. So two audience members didn't think they were, ok, so I guess it's not grossly offensive. A friend of mine (who's gay) recently saw the movie 300, and told me he didn't think it was homophobic, ok, so I guess it's not. You need more than a sample of a few people to generalize to a population.

did any of you read the actual statement made in the artcile? it wasn't about whether gay white men wanting to have sex with black men or not or attraction as you are trying to frame it.

It was about the fetishization of black men by gay white men. in other words, good enough to screw, but not good enough to be seen with. this is exactly the oppose of what has been written along this thread. that's why i called this conversation from the start dishonest or lazy (because if you read the article you come to the opposite conclusion of what's been said here).

it's something that if you are black and honest, you have experienced. for example, i once hung out with a white guy who i thought i was dating, but after we slept together the first time, he said to me "i don't date black guys, but I did want to try it out." This isn't a matter of attraction or not attraction- it's a matter of racist behavior with regard to black gay men. that it was okay to mess with my emotions because and then eliminate me because of race. the reason why you are making stuff up is that if you read the article there is not way you didn't read that.

There's a huge difference b/t having a preference & making a blanket elimination of an entire group of people.

If you fall under the latter, you've got issues you won't/refuse to acknowledge.

to craigyoung:

so there are white gays like that. they suck. does that mean all white gays like that???

regarding Shirley Q. Liquor, what is so offensive about him that say, Tyler Perry, someone who does the "old black lady" drag thing as well, isn't? I think using RuPaul using the act on his own album pretty much proves that whites are more worried about the act because they're afraid of it being seen as racist than blacks do. I always see WHITE people blasting the act, never seen a black person (outside of the homophobic columnists who hate all things gay to begin with and use this as an excuse about how evil and racist alll white gay men are) trashing him, and then to see RuPaul, perhaps the most visible African-American out entertainer around give him the thumbs up shows that apparently not that many people are offended by him.

Personally, I've seen more gay-racism from blacks against whites. I quit posting on a Janet Jackson forum because I got sick of all the trashing that white people got over there. I've never seen such racism from white posters on boards. Hell, I remember a lot of people were cussing one guy out who was biracial and prefers white guys to black, I've NEVER seen anything comparable to it on predominantly white boards I visit.

Plus, people always point out that there were never any men of color on Queer As Folk, but to be honest, have there ever been any white guys on Noah's Arc? At least The L Word does get it right with Pam Grier and Jennifer Beals (granted, she's seen as white by many people, but nonetheless, she is biracial and so is her character). I think there is as much dislike for whites among many gay blacks as people claim gay whites dislike blacks. It's a two-way-street but people only ever point out the "evil gay white mafia" for going after "poor brave" Isaiah Washington.

I think this was good interview that shed light on things that some may have been ignorant about. However at the same time there were some things that I didn't agree with. Homophobia is still at large in the Black community as well in other minority groups. The reason the DL is accepted is because it is like a dont ask dont tell situation because many in the community still believe that being gay/bi is a sign of weakness. Is everybody in the community like this? No, but many are.

As for the race issue I felt that they came off like they are generalizing a population. Not all gay white men see black men as a fetish( I have seen quite a few gay interracial couples) and there are some out there who do care about race issues however at the same their are some who are just ignorant and think that it isn't much of an issue anymore. Sadly, racism is still around and is within every group of people.

Well, well, well...

Some people's true colors really shine through.

another thing I don't like is the insistance that gay men are supposed to be cowards and hide that they're gay to please straight America. I'm sorry, I think gay men who date women for beards sake are cowards, one of my friends actually went through an "I'm dating chicks tho I'm still gay" phase because he was afraid of being rejected by newly made straight friends, even tho he's been out for years, and I was disgusted at his behavior. People forget that there are a lot of effeminate gay men who CAN'T hide what they are. Hell, remember in The Crying Game when Fergus tried to make Dil a man? you could still tell Jaye was gay and effeminate even with short hair and men's clothes. Yes, many gay men and lesbians can "hide" it effectively, but 1. why should we? and 2. the butch females and femme men CAN'T hide it.

so there are some people who hate gay people - there aer some who aren't- why dont we just ignore those that hate us?

oh, and by the way, the level to which you need to deny these people's actual experiences which is what we are talking about here is the level to which I don't trust this "conversation."