As Stephen Colbert's conservative alter-ego puts it, the new preferred culture war for straight white men is "gays versus blacks, blacks versus gays, and black gays versus themselves." Spokesgay Dan Savage then appears to correct Stephen, noting that it's really the elderly vote that put Prop 8 through: "And they're dying, which is some comfort."
Check it out after the break!
Submitted by
on Wed, 2008-11-12 10:39.
Soaking Up
nice....
Dan Savage
savage
it's nice...
that Dan has calmed down since making his inflammatory comments right after Prop 8 passed.
http://74.125.45.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Aslog.thestranger.com%2F2008%2F11%2Fblack_homophobia&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
apparently, he took down the post some time before he appeared on The Colbert Report. Fortunately, google cache captured it in all its glory. click the link above if you're curious.
I gotta be honest with you Lenny,
I don't really find it that inflammatory. He called racist gay men scum but just said they aren't a bigger problem for African Americans than homophobic African Americans are for gays. Why is this so much more evil than 70% of African Americans voting for Prop 8?
He Wrote:
African American voters in California voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, writing anti-gay discrimination into California’s constitution and banning same-sex marriage in that state. Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters.
I’m not sure what to do with this. I’m thrilled that we’ve just elected our first African-American president. I wept last night. I wept reading the papers this morning. But I can’t help but feeling hurt that the love and support aren’t mutual.
I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.
This will get my name scratched of the invite list of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which is famous for its anti-racist-training seminars, but whatever.
Finally, I’m searching for some exit poll data from California. I’ll eat my shorts if gay and lesbian voters went for McCain at anything approaching the rate that black voters went for Prop 8.
this is why...
it's race-baiting...he's marrying the stereotype of the dangerous black thug with that of the homophobic african-american. he was giving credence to the notion that african-americans are a people to be feared. so-called experts used statistics to say that most black men are violent, lazy, and ignorant, as well. how were his statements any better than theirs?
perhaps, he recognized his part in the current hostility directed towards african-americans (the comments on his post serve as evidence). as i said before, it's nice that he has stopped using inflammatory statements. even better, he mentioned that there are black lgbts in the gay community.
i used to be a big fan of mr. savage. i appreciate his apperance on colbert for what it is, an intelligent, witty, and humorous take on the passage of prop 8. however, any admiration i had for his column, blog, and appearnces has been tempered by his knee-jerk reaction to the passage of prop 8.
Baiting?
Your comment is grossly exaggerated. What you seem to be suggesting is that absolutely no segment of the African American community can ever be called out for bigotry (in this case the religious wing nuts) because it will give credence to the notion that "blacks" should be feared? It just sounds like rhetoric.
How is his statement any different? "huge numbers of homophobic African Americans" he called them homophobic because they are. Period. He did not call them violent, lazy or ignorant, and he called them 70%, not "all blacks." And lastly, the exit polls have been confirmed by the A.P. and other news sources at being either 69% or 70%. There has never been any evidence that people exaggerate or lie in larger numbers on exit polls than other polls.
The truth is what Savage reported, "huge numbers of homophobic African Americans" voted to pass Prop 8. Why will denying that truth help gays or blacks?
Why they deleted that post? You'll have to ask them, my guess is because of the comment section.
yes, baiting...
"I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color."
that is text-book race baiting. even if it wasn't his intention, that is what occured.
He didn't simply report that "huge numbers of homophobic African Americans" voted to pass prop. 8. Statistics without context only encourage stereotypes. Both Mr. Savage and Andrew Sullivan are now dialing back their opinions. They are now citing Nate Silver's analysis or prop. 8's passage:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/prop-8-myths.html
in my opinion, this is a generational and religious issue. yes, homophobic african-americans need to work on their bigotry, but doesn't any homophobe of any race need to do that?
The word "scum"
Look at the sentence again: "...the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum..." The word "scum" is referring to gay white men who are racist, not African Americans. If he's baiting anybody, he's baiting gay white men who are racist bigots (and, sadly, there ARE plenty of them, and they are scum).
Check out my blog: http://radicalsexy.blogspot.com/
100 percent agree with your posts
Okay
I don't want to get into this too much because I think African Americans have been blamed unfairly for the passing of Prop 8 even if the exit polls are correct (which I've heard some evidence that they are wrong), but I didn't get any of the lazy, violent black men accusation from what he wrote. I think there has been a tendency amond liberal gay men to feel guilty about the racism in the gay community and to back down too easily when African Americans say it's offensive to compare the black and gay movements. The whole "we've suffered more than you have so you don't deserve rights" is something that we (gay men) need to counter.
That said, the African American people I know all voted against the proposition and many of them actually went out and campaigned against it so I believe the blaming is wrong and counter-productive in that case.
The Mormons on the other hand....
i'm not saying
that he called african-americans lazy, violent, or ignorant. I'm saying that mr. savage has added another stereotype to the list--that of the black homophobe.
i think people need to resist the urge to think that all african-americans think or act alike. no one black person serves as the mouthpiece for all african-americans.
Stereotyping?
I don't see Savage's comments in any way suggest that all black are alike or think alike but only that 70% of those who voted in Calif. seem to be homophobic.
Why will denying that truth help gays or blacks?
well, then...
we're going to have to agree to disagree. i don't see it the way you do.
i guess you agree with bill o'reilly's comments, too. he is only reporting the facts, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqu1Oe_AKWU
this is race-baiting, and i think i've expended way too much energy on this subject. it seems as if people are just inclined to think the worst. this whole issue is exhausting and depressing.
Well, now
Pretty insulting what O'reilly said. We all seem to agree that his comments were race baiting, and not only that, divisive. I guess you agree with the churches who say homosexuality is a sin.
Just because I think it's useless to give bigots a free pass, no matter what their skin color, doesn't make be a racist. And I still fail to see how denying the facts will help gays or blacks.
But the Two Of You Do Agree
You both hate homophobes. You can agree to Agree on that.
I'm not sure why some folks on this blog are so focused on the stats about the racial break-down of the PRO Prop 8 voters in California.
If we see African Americans as human beings (not just a race) than we all have to assume that they (or we I should say) can be as homophobic as any other group of people.
That shouldn't be surprising to anyone.
I have just never expected African Americans to "know better" because Christianity trumps race with regard to homophobia and I have always been acutely aware of that.
At this point, I have to assume that each person (on this blog and elsewhere) must have some very personal reason for caring so much about race in this instance because in the end I just don't see how it actually matters, on the ground.
Personally it doesn't hurt me less or more if the personal oppressing me (based on gender, race or sexuality) is white, black asian, etc.
For me, every time I see someone use the phrase "gays OR blacks", it's like saying I don't exist.
I can no more separate the "gay" part of myself from myself than I can separate the "black" part of myself from myself (or the female for that matter).
What I can do is respond to what's happening around me.
Prop 8 is about My Sexuality and Rights as a Gay Citizen.
One of my favorite activists and writers in the world Jewell Gomez (a black lesbian) married white Jewish woman Gail Rabin days before Prop 8 Passed.
If that doesn't exemplify how ridiculous it is to continue to play the "blacks vs gays" song, I just don't know what will.
As for the baiting, for me, here's where it comes in,
Stats don't exist in a vacuum and they are useless without analysis.
Saying "The Black Community is Homophobic" without qualifying which segments of the black community or why, is like saying"Men Are Rapists" without qualification.
Is it true that most women who are raped are raped by men? Yes, statistically speaking. But it wouldn't be fair to just blanketly say therefore, Men Are Rapists. It implies that "all" men are "always rapists" all of the time.
It's not about denying the truth of the statistics or denying the truth that some black people are homophobic. We all know that.
I feel like All Gay People are completely justified in being very mad at, feeling hurt by and having resentment towards All Supporters of Prop 8
Being more mad at Some folks (African American) who voted for Prop 8 than we are at Other folks (Everybody Else) who voted for Prop 8, just doesn't seem to serve a purpose except to make us (Everybody Who Is Gay) feel separated from each other.
Not to mention the fact that I'm am certain that the anger many white gays and lesbian might feel toward African American voters in California can't possibly be worse than the anger and betrayal GAY Blacks and Latinos and Gays of other ethinic groups feel toward their respective "peoples". Using a phrase like "gays versus blacks" doesn't really allow for this reality.
"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorthy Parker)
Just have to jump in here for one comment...
I have totally stayed out of this argument and have sat back to read and learn from all of you and others that weigh in on this issue. The one thing that I keep coming back to is that if everyone were color blind for a moment and looked at this, they would have to find other reasons that the people that voted "yes" voted that way. No one has ever said "I'm black therefore I am going to vote a certain way". It comes down to what individuals believe, what they are told, what they think. It is time to retire the skin color issue. There are so many sub-communities within the color communities that one can no longer use race as a defining demographic. It's time to get "color blind" and realize that the lies that people have been told and believe are why they voted "yes".
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
Truth and science
This is not a contest between Homophobia and Racism
This is about Heterosexism and Homphobia versus Gay Rights and Gay Equality
There are homophobic whites and there are homophobic blacks.
I'm a black lesbian and I don't give a crap what color a homophobe is. I care that they are hateful and hurtful and denying my civil rights as a citizen and human being.
We as gay and lesbian people need to hold ALL Homophobes accountable for their behavior (black christian grannies, conservative jewish grandpas, bible-thumping morman uncles, WHOMEVER, WHEREEVER THEY ARE!
These are not "us" and "them" issues.
Because "The Gay Community" is multicultura, multi-gendered, multi-ethnic, cross-classed and international,
Racism Damages Our Community
Homophobia Damages Our Community
Sexism Damages Our Community
Ethnocyntrism Damages Our Community
As Gay People, we date, marry, adopt, create family and friends and community across all categories.
It is to our very great detriment to allow this stuff to become so divisive.
HOMOPHOBES verus GAYS AND GAY ALLIES
the only two groups that count
"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorthy Parker)
I'm glad
So
I have always been a big fan of Dan Savage and Steve Colbert
I haven't got the opportunity to check out any of the comments that were made by Dan about Proposition 8 and in a way I'm a little relieved. It seems that most of the time when someone reactions to something painful, it can be the most hurtful, yet unlogical thing you can think of that is about to come out of their mouths.
In defense of Dan Savage, who like Anderson Cooper just gets better looking with age and I think it has something to do with their long and lean frames and these angelic-looking faces. I highly doubt that Dan Savage has a racial bone in his body but he was extremely hurt because of the fact that he is legally married in Canada but partnered in his home country. The word 'partnered' sounds even more like an appliance, than a loving relationship, that any state in the United States, should legally honor and respect.
You have to realize that whenever polls are taken, it seems they always result with figures that aren't too accurate, to boot. Instead they chose an even lower road to travel because it seems the results have this way of drumming up and boosting some sort of controversial conclusion. This time it seems that black voters in CA, would be the ones targeted and if anyone wants to blame that poll result on the fact that we as a nation elected the first Black or African-American(which ever one you chose) President Elect, Mr. Obama, than that is just wrong and a bit right. The voting process with Proposition 8, would take some of the pressure off the fact, that Obama wasn't just the Black peoples choice or White but he was the People's Choice all-around. Can I say that more Whites in several of the big states voted for Obama. You want to hear some facts, it seems that many southern states that house a great deal of Black voters, were McCain states all the way. I just really want to know if everyone would be so angry if McCain/Palin, would have been victorious? It just seems like everyone wants to make many voters feel bad about their choices, I know for a fact that maybe my parents aren't too keen on the fact that I am gay but they love me and respect my decisions. They might not always agree on it but it seems that their religious background makes some things I believe in a bit much for them, however they never deny me anything.
You have to know that it still seems like a dream to me that we will have a Black President but I know that my grandfather, who is no longer with us, would always say that one day we will have a Black President and who better than Barrack Obama? Extremely handsome, with a lovely and doting family and just someone that doesn't seems like he knows everything but is smart and willing to learn to help lead this country back to the basic of what it used to mean to be an American because I think most of us forgot. He will be the 42nd President in history that was a lawyer and that is saying a great deal about where he has been and what he is capable of doing. All that was enough for me to make my choice of voting. For a hot minute I was convinced that I was going to chose Paris Hilton, Dora the Explorer, McCain and Palin, which I must add, that I love Sara Palin for many reason and one is the fact that Tina Fey and her are separate at birth and I love Tina Fey all day. Secondly, the chick spend government money and got an insane wardrobe and fierce makeover. My kind of girl!
I know that even at the not-so-tender age of 35, I'm not ready to settle down with Mr. Right but I have a hunch that he is out there and I have to say that getting hitch is something I would want to do. Just knowing that the country, that I not only love, honor and respect, would view my union and nupitials as not just a piece of paper or some kind of contract or fancy party with family and friends but as a union of love, honor and respect. As well as looking at my straight-counterparts and not seeing any difference between the two.
10 % Is Apparently Not Enough when it comes to Black Gays
1.) Gays versus African Americans or Blacks is a false dichotomy. The categories overlap so how can Dan Savage or anyone else pretend that there is some kind of war between the two "groups"
2.) It feels like the folks who keep repeating the "black community is homophobic"statement aren't willing to acknowlege or don't believe in the role that religion is playing in this situation. Or they don't belive that Gay Black People exist or that Black Straight Allies of Gay People exist.
There real dichotomy in California was "Conservative Christians and Mormans" versus "Gays and Gay Allies", NOT "Homophobic African Americans" versus "Gays".
It's not surprising that such a high number of black folks in california would vote in favor of prop 8 because there is a very high number of black folks who are conservative christians.
Clearly the 70% of Black Californians who voted for prop 8 did so BECAUSE they're Conservative Christians, not because they are Black.
I guess what I would want from Dan Savage of Andrew Sullivan or anyone on AE would be for them to acknowledge this.
As a Black/African American Lesbian and Activist, I'm sure folks can understand how maddening it must be for us to listen to folks repeatedly say that "African American" or "Blacks" WITHOUT QUALIFICATIOn are more homophobic than any other "group" .
1) It's simply not true. If 10% of the population of African Americans are gay (going with the standard line about gays) well, that's a whole lot of non-homophobic Black people.
2) Black folks are a minority group because numerically speaking we are a minority. There are literally more white folks then there are black folks in this country and there are most definitely more white folks in the state of California then there are Black folks.
Why is that relevant? Well, because numerically speaking, it just doesn't make sense to single out African Americans as the "cause" of prop 8 passing nor does it make sense to assume that what a small group of African Americans in California believe somehow "represents" all African Americans/Blacks.
3) The statistics don't stay that 70% of ALL African Americans in California voted in favor of prop 8. The stat just means that 70% of those few African Americans who voted, suported prop 8. And even they represent a small subset of however many African Americans there are in California . Yes, more Black folks voted in California than in previous years.
But surely folks don't believe that the white/latino/morman/etc folks who voted for prop 8 "represent" the feelings of EVERYONE in the state of California?
There are More Latinos living in the state of California then there are Blacks.
There are More Whites living in the state of California then there are Blacks.
I'm no statistician but is seems like numerically it makes sense there there would be a more even split for whites and latinos because there are just literally more of them. The opportunity for a diversity of opinion should be higher if the population is higher.
Whether the stats are accurate or not isn't really the issue.
Dan Savage et al must know that those African Americans who voted for Prop 8 are Christian Homophobes. It is a necessary and relevant qualification and it should be clearly stated.
It's what the stats mean and how we as a community decide to deal with this that matters most
To me, the real battle is between Heterosexist Homophobes (of every stripe/belief system) versus GAYS and GAY ALLIES (of every stripe and belief system).
Those are the only two groups who actually matter and the sooner we accept this, the stronger we'll be as a "Community of Gays and Lesbians"
"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorthy Parker)
Glad to see he backed down
Straight Shock
I absolutley LOVED Stephen Colbert's reactions when Dan would make the overtly sexual gay jokes. Colbert's reaction was a perfrect example of Straight Shock at anything to do with gay sex, it was soooooo funny!
Stephen Colbert's best "straight shock" moment was after Dan made the "saddlebacking" joke. I fell out of my chair laughing!