Mocha Lounge video blog (Ep. 3): Change, blame, and what's next in the wake of Prop 8

You guys did a great job with this vlog. I was particularly impressed with Pastor Tolton. I had never heard about this aspect of the Black Power movement and the Churches response to it and it's correlation to this problem of black homophobia.

 

There are so many issues the gay community has to deal with here. You have the religious aspect, the fact that a bullied people will often turn into bullies themselves. You also have the fact that the larger (ie) white gay community apparently didn't do much if any outreach to the black community.

 

There is still much work to be done.

Thank you for having this included on the site. It was a great start to hearing from all members of our unique community. Many forget that being homosexual and a member of a religion can only be detected in most cases only through a simple question such as "Are you gay?" or "What religion are you?" We share that uniqueness although one is nature (homosexuality) and the other is purely free choice (religion). The African American and Latino communities have a strong tradition of the church as a center. We must respect that but not denegrate the value of faith. to long we have been persecuted by religion, but many of us still believe in a higher being personally. We must outreach to both communities, familiarize them with our families, and help them see us as neighbors and not spectres.

From the beginning of the no on 8 campaign it seems like actual gay voices were almost non-existant and gay people of color were nowhere to be seen. After it's passing pretty much the only gay voices we heard were Dan Savage and Jasmine Cannuck. We need to get more voices like the pastor out there.

Thank you so much for this edition. It's been very difficult listening to a lot of the rhetoric as I have many black friends and co-workers (gay and straight) who all voted against this and I know that the First AME Church here in LA came out against it. I think the no on 8 campaign was too timid and didn't do enough outreach. It's a good lesson learned. I also think the passing woke up a lot of gay people who were just too complacent about our position in society.

Normally I'm so ready to check out your VLOG and just sit back for a few seconds and just chill but this time, I went through so many different emotions.  I was excited just like you for the fact that America would do the unthinkable and elect Obama into office.  I have to go with Samantha from Sex and The City's take on politics, "You want to vote for someone that you would want to sleep with.  No one wanted to sleep with Nixon and he wasn't a good president".  Maybe I'm taking the HO, HO, HO route when I say that Obama, is so attractive, smart and just the man that is going to bring change to a lagging nation. 

I was celebrating with friends about this historic win and then when I got home, I jumped online and I saw the devasting news about Prop 8.  I was completely still and silent and that high that I was riding was crashing and fast.  In my current dating or what I like to call "Dating Hell", there haven't been too many guys that I have been involved with, that I can honestly say that I would like to start a family with or share a mortgage and the rest of my days and night with but there has been a few that come damn close.  It seems that I would like to think that the country that I love, cherish and honor so whole-heartedly wouldn't consider me just a tax payer, who doesn't have the simple right to walk down the aisle with someone I love.  I would like to believe that I'm in a country, that if I would decide to be someone's MR, that my nuptials would honored and respected and that is no matter where this special and extremely lucky person, would decide to reside or visit.  I hate feeling like I only matter a little bit or whenever someone needs a dollar or two of my hard earned monies.

It seems that black folks in California are catching some heat and one of my favorite guys (Dan Savage) is at the forefront of all the hype.  I have been a Dan Savage fan for several years and I read a great book of his and realized that this man is seriously about family and is involved in a loving committed relationship.  He even has a son that he and his partner adopted and reading his book, I gain a bit more respect for him because he was brutally honest about everything and being someone who wants to share a few stories with the world, my hats went off to him.  Uncomfortable situations and moments with family and friends, first times and everything in between and totally out there, he would share in this book.  When I heard that he was pissed about the outcome of Proposition 8, which I understood because he traveled to Canada to tie the knot with his beloved.  However, I didn't know that he was blaming black people in California and beyond for the devasting outcome.  I have heard that he even went as far as throwing in the Obama angle, which isn't fair.  Believe it or not and I'm going by statistics because that is all we have is statistic because most people lie about everything but I think more white people voted for Obama than black people.  It seems that many were completely shocked that he was really elected and now that shock is over because this good-looking lawyer/Senator/Husband and Father is our elected President.  I have to say though, I caught Dan Savage talking with DL Hughely on his show and he was redeem in my eyes but long and behold, DL went out and wasn't homophobia but wasn't the gay-friendly guy I though he would be.  However, he shared the fact that his faith, stops him from being supportive of gays but he felt that the government shouldn't have a say either way.  It wasn't almost like being paritial slapped in the face but I can't lie and say that I don't still love DL humor because the brother is funny.  Dan Savage is still a GOD to me and it will take a great deal of words to discourage that factor.  Sometimes people who love us, say some extremely hurtful things, out of rage and passion.     

Sorry, but I'm from Pennsylvania and the entire Prop 8 fiasco wasn't on the ballot box but it's my understanding, how it was worded and extremely confusing for many voters out in California because it didn't seem like you were asked a question, rather than an opinion to a statement.  There is always some scandal involved when it comes down to politics and that is why I'm not a big talker when it comes down to politics and such. 

Pastor Tolton gave me a bit of a chill because I was looking at him and listening to him and I was getting vision of Bayard Rustin, who was a silent aid to Dr. King and I realized that Bayard being out back during the civil right era, made it possible for the extremely handsome Pastor Tolton and even us as black gay men, to have voices and opinions.  Mr. Tolton, touched on the topic that as a black gay man, I have deal with most of my life and that is homophobia, religion and my spiritual being.  I remember once, that there was a friend of my brothers who I gave a ride home out of the kindness of my heart and not because he was cute because the truth is going to set me free, right.  Well this guy wasn't cute at all and I wanted to throw him out of my car.  The subject of being gay and believeing GOD came up and boy did my windows get steamed up and all for the wrong reasons.  It seems that this friend claimed that there is no such thing as a 'Gay Christian'.  I have always considered myself someone who loves the LORD and respects each and everyone walking amongst this earth but I just happen to love men a bit more than your average spiritual sound person.  I wasn't raised up in the church but it seems that my younger brother would pass away in 99' and I would become baptized and became a faithful-at-one-time member of my parents church.  My mom would lead the family to church, which wasn't a bad thing and it seems we all joined around the same time.  My parents have become a Decaon and Decaoness, which is such an honor and you have to know that they take extremely serious and I couldn't be more happier. 

 

I haven't gave up on God or attending church but I just had a little experience that I need to share.  It seems that I rushed to Bible-study daily but on this occasion, I was car less and walked a good 5 miles to get to church, which is no problem, I love to walk and a little sweat never hurt anyone.  However, it was one of those days that I felt like I should have stayed home because I was trying out something good for my spiritual self.  I was one of those church members that stayed low key because I'm pretty sure most of the congreations realized that I was gay and they weren't cool with it but it was never discussed.  Until this day in questioning because it seems the entire sermon was about gays and homosexuality and for some reason, I was normally surrounded by people that I thought had my back and loved the Lord, the way that I do but on this day, I was sitting in a pew literally alone.  God as my only witness but I was somehow able to hear people's thoughts and it wasn't anything good I was hearing but more important was the looks I was getting from my fellow church-members.      

I will be back...............      

I have been waiting so long for this subject matter to be brought to the surface.  Thank you so much for discussing this issue and broadcasting this video. It all begins with one voice, you two are using yours to help enrich the community and make it better.  This is a beautiful thing!  Please keep up the excellent work.

 

Chike Evans

 

It seems there is this Scooby-Doo mystery about if black people are more homophobic than anyone else and I can solve this mystery with one word, 'NO'.  I think black people have a bit more problem than most accepting the fact that many of the people around them and even their own family and friends that just happen to be black, might be gay as well. 

There is always that argument about if being gay is choice and that isn't just black or white but most people feel that being gay is just a choice.  It seems when you deal with discrimination of all kinds or just made to feel like your not human, all that plus more, according to most that is the choice I made.  Funny, because when I decided to actually come out and tell everyone that I loved and I cared about, that I was a proud gay man, the outcome and many reaction that I got and received wasn't what I expected.  You can't tell someone straight that they chose to be straight, it just doesn't happen because it just feels nature for them to want to be with the opposite sex.  I can't tell you a time that I didn't like boys when I was younger and men when I got older. 

The biggest argument that seem to surface lately, especially with the entire Prop 8 and the backlash, is the fact that several black people feel that there are no similarities between blacks and gays fight for equality.  I don't know how I feel about that entire topic because it seems that I have experience both and neither one is a walk in the park.  My sad reality is that I have deal with both at the same time.  The heart of the matter is that both groups are struggling daily for an identity in a world, that somehow has already made the assumption that we have superior minds and spirits and the key is we are very resourceful.  When someone feels inferior to you for any reason, they will try everything in their powers to control you and that is by any means necessary.  What better way to control someone is having the government intervene and basically tell you what you can do and can't do.  Even better is start a campaign that basically makes you seem non-human or not worthy of any rights.  I don't think that anyone should be denied basic human and civil rights and both blacks and gays have been deny both.        

Think about your average hood anywhere in America and there is that guy, that just happens to be this fabulous gay man and is bumping and pressing every sista' hair and literally creating a masterpiece.  You must know that this is all taking place out of his apartment or his basement and this is from dusk to dawn.  You have the young girls that want that to die-for Beyonce or Janet weave and then you have the professional women that just want to look the part and you even have the women, that are in church 3 to 4 times a week, all coming together by this artist.  Just like barbershops, a beauty salon is where everything is on the table from gossip and just the real talk all comes about.  You have to remember that many of these divas have boyfriends or husbands, that want their special ladies to look good but might not want to sit and deal with this ritual.  The master of cermonies(the stylist) is getting showered with love from his clients because no one can bump some hair like him, however many of these divas aren't your average gay supporters but support their friend and his livelyhood.  To most of his clients because he is always working, it seems that his personal life doesn't exist, especially that fact that he might have a friend or lover.  It's not that they don't want to hear about it but it seems that no matter how he tries to sugar-coat his life, it's hard for many to grasp the ideal that there are men having relationships with other men.  I know many of these women wouldn't be afraid to say they have a friend that is gay but many might have a hard time understanding just why.  Gay men aren't a threat to women on bit because I know for a fact that I love and adore women but it seems on occasion our worlds collide because that same guy that might girlfriend has been eyeing up, seems to have had his eyes on me or vice versua.  I know that isn't where the whole craze with the 'downlow' came from, lets just say that is just human nature. 

What is funny is that my own mother, who is my life and my world still has a hard time accepting the fact that I'm gay and I been came out along time ago.  It seems that when she runs into another gay person, she is always so kind and so sweet with them and runs back to tell me of gay people she has meet and talked with or even better when someone gay is on the tube or a gay film is about to come out.  I don't think my mom will be the first to tell anyone that I am gay and that is something that I pray with time, she will be able to.  Maybe hook me up or set me up with someone she likes but you never know.  Right now just accepting the fact that her son is dating or I have someone new in my life is completely another story and something that her and I have to deal with.  She has always told me that the gay life is a bit lonely and hurtfull and so far I can honestly say that her words have rung a bit of truth, daily.  It seems the gay life I was leading wasn't healthy and strictly repetitive and truthfully, I just wasn't having any fun.  When you think of the word 'gay' and you automatically think joy and happiness and I was completely miserable.  The truth was my mother had to witness my pain and sorrow daily, I know that didn't ease her worrying mind about how my life would play out.  It seems that when you have children you want the best for them and you don't want anyone to hurt them or mistreat them.  I have to love my mom for caring and worrying about me, I wouldn't have it any other way but it seems that there is no turning around now for me, I'm gay and that is it.   

... that the Black Power struggle was categorically misognistic and homophobic to an extent that it influenced the black church/civil rights scene.  Of course there was Elderidge Cleaver and other voices, but it bears to mention that Huey P. Newton, from the very beginning, took a stand against homophobia in many statements as well as in actions in coalitioning with the Gay Liberation Front.  Of course there were also rumors that certain Panther members and/or Newton himself were closeted or "DL", but the point is I feel it's unfair to categorize Black Power as definitively anti-LGBT and anti-women. 

On the other hand, you had Adam Clayton Powell Jr. who showcased his homophobia by threatening to blackmail MLK by suggesting that he was having an affair with Bayard Rustin, so this idea that black homophobia came from the radical black nationalists into the churchy black middle class is unfair.

Black homophobia is complex, multi-facted and not easily summarized. We must take care to note who is speaking to whom, wehn and why.

 

And BTW, J. Edgar Hoover threatened MLK with the same lie.

Greetings All: I just got on to this so forgive the lateness but after hearing this interview regarding Los Angeles Black people voting against Prop 8 in high numbers, I must say it's true.   I live here in LA, work in Hollywood and I can honestly say in most of the black neighborhoods you heard and saw a lot of support for "Yes on 8."   I don't think it was finger pointing at all Ramon.   One of our local public radio stations held an open forum at a church in South LA and rather than listening to the issues of why they should vote NO on 8 and allow Gays the right to marry even when it was compared to (Loving vs. the state of Virginia) they would just misquote scripture and say it was an abomination and that we were trying to destroy the family unit.  They didn't want to hear anything about rights of same-sex partners, be it adoption, insurance, health care, home ownership, etc… The fact remains that the community is in denial and the climate must change now.  You say that black people are not ready to but the fact is we’re here and will continue to fight for these rights the same way all BLACKS had to fight for equality in this country.  I think it’s sad that one of the races that was oppressed the most in this country still continues to buy into the old “slave mentality” and become the New Oppressor.  Not trying to offend anyone just my opinion.