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Mores for Gays video blog (Ep. 10): Dating a newbie
Coming out is hard enough to go through once ... is it really worth going through again with someone you're dating? Gay men who have just come out can be very enticing, and a lot of trouble. In this episode, Daniel Leary helps you weigh the pros and cons, and comes up with some mathematical equations that might help avoid some drama. Watch it after the break! Submitted by on Wed, 2008-08-20 09:03. |
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No, wrong.
If they're 30 and haven't come out yet. It's far too late. They'll realize that the best part of their lives has passed by and that it just isn't worth coming out.
Coming out after 30 is "far too late"?
It's never too late to begin becoming more authentic in my book.
I say date the new gays and the experienced gays. Jumping into a relationship is tricky with new gays, indeed -- but it's also pretty tricky to jump into a relationship with anyone. Date. Explore. Talk. Experiment. Laugh. Learn. And let yourself be open to surprises. And if it's wrong (and you'll know it), be honest and opt out. Most people benefit from a few relationships that just don't work out -- for whatever reason.
It's like that Eartha Kitt song: Proceed with caution / but lover, please proceed.
boyd
that scares the hell outta me
Oh dear....
....don't EVER let anyone tell you that your teenage high school years are the best years of your life! That is a lie adults tell children trying to make them behave. I would never ever trade the experience and learning I have now to go back and be a teen or even in my twenties. Just enjoy each moment as it comes and don't think you are missing "the best". Every year of your life is "the best" as you make it.
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
First, figure out which of your best friends is gay-positive
Future epitaph: "It seemed like a good idea at the time."
1) Figure out which of your best friends is gay friendly--has discussed the idea in the past and expressed support, or seen gay-themed TV shows or movies and been OK with it. Tell that one person, or two people. (You'd be surprised how often gay people choose someone as a best friend who's also gay or bi--the first person I told subsequently came out as a lesbian 3 years later!)
2) Find a support outlet via PFLAG or a gay youth hotline or somesuch. It might be helpful for you to have someone "on your side" with you when you tell someone for the first time. There are even parents with gay kids who'll be with you when you tell your family, or give your parents their info.
3) Pick a hobby you're really into--sports, arts, etc. Depending on where you are, there's probably a gay group that does it as well. Good way to meet people, especially with a common interest. Helps build friendships, keeps you from going too quickly to the dating stuff. And again, lets you help practice your coming out in a safe environment.
Believe it or not, once you tell once person, the rest go like dominos--after high school I told someone, and just a few minutes later told another friend; in college, it was the exact same drill. Before long, you have a whole support network!
If you have an older gay friend, you have the right to say "No" to ANYTHING that makes you nervous, uncomfortable, etc. There are tons of older gays who are happy to mentor you, support you, etc.; there might be a small percentage that will be happy to take advantage of your "newbieness." Tell 'em to take a hike if you EVER feel taken advantage of, manipulated, creeped out, etc. (Especially if you're still 17!)
Good luck!! :)
Same Here... :(
Same here but a little worst because I’m turning 24 on Monday and I still have no intentions on coming out yet. I’m from Argentina and is not so unusual to come out late here (I think it’s that macho thing that Latin American culture have) and it’s worst for me because my big brother who is 35 years old is gay too and he came out to my family when he was 30 and those were the worst weeks of MY life (not so much for him because my parents didn't show that to him, they did the cring in front of me and my sister), I had to put up with the crap and misconceptions my parents have about homosexuality because I was too afraid to defend him thinking they would realize that I knew too much about been gay (my mother even make my sister ask me if I were gay too and I said I wasn’t). A few years have pass now, and everything is OK, my brother is in a serious relationship with his boyfriend (and living together) and my parents are totally supportive of them but I don’t know how I’m going to deal with all the drama that is coming out. besides the point that that would be a stab in my father’s heart considering that he thought that my brother being gay was his fault. So I wonder what he would think about the fact that both of his sons are gay?.
Lately things have complicated a little because my mother is starting to fantasize about who I would marry and how my children would look like (that’s because my sister have just got married and had a child and I’m 23 and never brought a girlfriend home, could it be a sign that she is suspecting something?, I think she might)
I hear you
It's still available to her, Michael
Dear Michael --
It's interesting to read your post about the expectations your mom has, because -- with a little alteration, a little adjustment in her thinking -- all of that is still available to her (and, more important, to you!): you can have a wedding with all the interference from the mothers that any couple have at their wedding (because I work with a lot of people in their 20s, I hear a lot of wedding stories -- mothers always interfere too much! -- but sometimes that's good because they take care of all those details and you don't have to); the type of person she wants you to date and marry is probably a solid, good, decent, loving person, which is what you want, too -- he just won't have that big Texas beauty queen hair, and maybe he'll be a hot water polo player type instead; how you should treat that person you love would be the same whether no matter the gender.
One thing you've got going for you, Michael, is that you live in a great town -- Austin has the advantage of having one of the great universities, as well as being a seat of state government; it's also a great music town. I'm not sure what the gay scene is like, but I'm sure there's something going on. What I wonder about is what possibilities there are for LGBT folks your age. I know that, even in a town the size of Chicago (where I live), making sure that teens are being nurtured and cared for is an ongoing concern -- that we're not doing enough for people who need somewhere to meet other gay people that isn't a bar. I'd be interested in knowing what is available in Austin for gay teens. Knowing that you're not the only one in town can be a great comfort -- it can counteract the messages you're getting from Mom.
In years to come, your brother's going to be a great support for you -- and you for him. You can trust me on this. Take care, Michael.
oh: and the grandchildren
about those grandchildren of hers....
not crazy at all
ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!
The One And Only
Thats so sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!
up until the carrying of the cup after dinner yuck
still sweet thought
just be u, dont let anyone dictate who you should be, i grew up in texas and i know how hard it is to be a beautiful boy in a land of cowboys and oilworkers. just be honest to yourself, your parents will love you no matter what, mine do..........
Parental Expectations
Parents often have somewhat overly-controlling dreams of how their children's lives will play out.
When I first came out I ended up having a discussion with an older cousin of my mother's generation who was trying to explain to me why my mother has problems with my being gay, and of course it included the whole wife/children bit.
But there was irony here and I was forced to point it out, even though we normally avoid this topic in our family. Our family is Catholic and many of the family have been quite prolific with procreation. This particular cousin is the daughter of one of my grandfather's sisters (my great-aunt). My great aunt only managed to have one child, the cousin with whom I was speaking. The cousin herself and her husband had tried to have children but not one of her pregnancies survived to term.
Her parents wanted a larger family but ended up with only one child. They ended up with no grandchildren at all. This was despite the fact that my cousin was straight, married and a devout Catholic.
The moral of the story being that parental expectations don't always get fulfilled. It's not even limited to situations where their children are gay. It is perfectly possible to have straight children who never marry, who are infertile and even who (God forbid) die. This was an awkward conversation and my cousin had no response. She and I are both non-breeders but for very different reasons. Both of our parents didn't have their expectations met, for completely different reasons.
Now, it is very likely I will never have children, either biological or adopted. I am 36 and have had no success finding a partner (or even a boyfriend) and I could not manage to raise a child by myself. My only sister died years ago. I do often feel badly for my mother, who has had her expectations dashed. But life doesn't play out the way we expect it to. I was not raised with the expectation that I would be gay and yet I am. That was something I had to deal with. Likewise, my mother has to deal with the fact that my life won't play out as she expected as well.
But as the case of my cousin illustrates, that is just how life is sometimes. Sometimes it is very difficult for parents to cope with the reality that their plans will not come true. However that's a part of life for everybody. You cannot feel guilt just because someone else's roadmap for your life didn't work out as planned.
I cannot believe I am NOT the only one going through this :0
Alright Cirpricio. Maybe God directed me to this site for a reason, because your story and mines are almostl exactly alike. slight difference though. I am currenty 25 with Zero experince with dating with either girl or boy and I recently told my brother that I was gay and he is also gay too which why he was the first and the only one in my family right that know about me. After I told him it gave me some courage within myself to tell two of my close trusted friends in which one of them confessed to me that he was bi, hah! go figure huh. However, I am in the same field as you when it come to telling my parents. However here is the twist, as far as kids goes my parents are wondering if I ever will bring a women home and make some kids...HAH! Laughable. Anyway the thing is that if I were to tell them I would tell my mom first because her and I have a very close connection with each other but the main obsticle is my dad. He doesnt hold very much in high regard to gays much less him having gay kids two of them even. The twist for me is this, I carry his name as the 3rd so it would be very hard for him to accept me for who I am givning the fact I am a name carrier. Also its the fact that I am not to keen on kids. I have neices and nephews and that is enough for me. I'll think I will get a dog instead. Yeah..........that would be nice, having a woof woof as someone to take care of. Aside from that as a newbie listening to that vlog I can understand what the guy was saying when it comes to the reactions of being a person coming out. I am more in between the two categories I dont fear being gay now that I finally can to a resolution to who I am but I do fear the path of being a gay man will take me. At the same time I am kinda excited to see what kind of new people might come into my life and possibly explore some of the finer things in dating or friend I can be out to in that matter, but I do fear lost though. It was a hard for me to tell my 2 friends about who I am. I know I will eventually tell the others. I believe God gave me a good eye for befriending and having good friends in my life and I do believe despite their feeling towards gays it may shock them to find out that I was gay myself but I fear tell them all the same. So the way I see it, it could be a ultimate test of friendship seeing if they truly care about me no matter who I am. I dont know. Sorry I know I typed a lot but I figure I share this because our stories are very simlar to each other, and its nice to finally communicate to someone other than my brother about this. I guess it shows that I am building courage within myself to not care what everyone else thinks. Even if i go GA GA for guys LOL!
As you said I’m amazed how similar our situations are o_Ô.
You are right about the similarities of our situations! although I haven’t come out to anyone yet I most likely will come out to my brother fist and then to my best friend who have show me to be very gay friendly (actually I think he might be gay too). And then I’ll try my mother (with whom I also have a very close relationship and the fact that that might change is what scares me the most about coming out –too much of an Oedipus complex, I know-).
And about the father situation, I don’t carry his name but he have eight brothers and sisters and all of them have daughters and he is the only one with two sons that could carry the family name and since my brother came out I turn out to be the “last hope” of the family name (talking about parental pressure).
But lately I have realize that those are their problems and expectations not mine so I hope that when I finally come out to them, they see me as what I am an not as what I could have been if I coped with their expectations. In my hart I know they will accept me eventually. What scares me is not that, but the process between coming out and been accepted.
out resources
The newly out gay man that I believe that Leary is talking about comming out at 30, is a man who may have been married, or never had a male-male relationship. He may know what it's like to date, but doen't know what it's like to love. And high school isn't always the healthiest place to come out or have a sexual relationship.
Michael, you've all ready come out to the only person that really matters, yourself. As far as telling anyone else. Don't worry about it. Telling some one that you are gay is a gift. Not many people realize that or fail to see it that way. No needs to ever know, but if you wish to be close to your friends and your family, you will find the right time to tell them. One of the rewards of comming out is that you get to find out who your real friends are. You find out who are the phoney friends as soon as you come out. It can take straight people 20 years before they find out that those same 'friends' were just using them.
I was frightened before I came out, wondering what people would think. But that was a different time. It is possible that your friends and family already know or have an inkling. And the only reason they haven't said anything to you, is because they want to respect your privacy. But if you are anxious about it, try hooking up with pflag.org to find out about resources on Getting Support - Coming Out. Try to contact the chapter that is nearest you, even if there isn't one in your own town.
Try outminds.com, this site is a great place for gay, lesbian and questioning youth. Run by youth and FOR youth. They have a terrific support staff.
Coming Out Resources & A Safe Place to Chat Empty Closets Forum.
LGBT Health Channel
.
thanks
I hate having to do the
wow
a lot of great advice
Dear Michael --
It's amazing to me that there are so many people (strangers, really, but folks who have gotten to know you through AE) who want to help you through the process of coming out. I'm willing to bet that there are more who have sent you a private message as well with good wishes and good advice.
Boy, I remember the feelings that you're talking about: wanting to BE out so you don't have to COME out -- and it's exactly as you describe, buddy: those butterflies in the pit of your stomach. But it'll be great when you do come out -- there's nothing like that feeling of freedom, when you don't have to hide that part of yourself. You may have read or heard the stories of other people who have come out -- it's always the same: that feeling of freedom.
It may be that there will be some who are not supportive -- and it may be that those people are family members. You'll have to decide how to deal with that when the time comes, depending on their reaction and your instincts about how much they're willing to give up their old, misguided beliefs for the new knowledge that you're giving them. As for friends, you'll discover who your true friends are -- the ones who are supportive and proud that you trusted them with your honesty are going to be the true ones.
It may be that you need to wait until you're out on your own to do some of this coming out -- at least to mom and dad. Waiting till college (which, chances are, will be so much better than high school) is sometimes a good idea. But that doesn't help you through this next year. That's a decision you'll have to make -- and the guy is right (in my opinion) who advised you to scope out your friends to see who is gay-supportive. That'll help you to come out to the right people -- and will give you an easy person or persons who will help you get rid of the butterflies.
Happy Coming Out, Michael, whenever and however you do it -- and Happy Birthday next month. Let us know when it is so we can all celebrate with you!
(BTW: Thanks for that photo of Chris Rockway that is your avatar -- it's always fun to see his picture next to your interesting, fun, revealing comments!)
thanks, whose your avatar?
My avatar
Hey, Michael --
My avatar is Bryan Batt, an openly gay actor who plays Salvatore Romano on Mad Men, one of my favorite shows. (The photo shows Bryan as Salvatore.) It's about the people in an ad agency in the early '60s. Salvatore is the art director of the agency, and he's a closeted gay man (in that time period, being in the closet seemed like the only option for gay men). It's a wonderfully written character, and Bryan plays it brilliantly. (For a look at a younger Bryan Batt, see Jeffrey.)
As for my screen name, "dg" are my initials ("gould" is my last name) and "chgo" is an abbreviation for the city I live in. Ta-daa!
And thanks, Michael -- I'm glad we're buddies, too.
I wish you happiness
I have no personal advice, being female and straight, but I offer you my support and thoughts in this and wish you all the best and that you find the path that is right for you.
Best years of their lives has passed them by?
Kind of like your grammar teacher? Sheesh kid, nothing left to come out for if you are over 30? Just throw all of us fossils in a hole and bulldoze it over.
Nous Sommes Tous Sauvages.
Not Worth Coming Out?
Oh Metabaron, I really hope you're joking.
The best years of my life were 5-7, 28, and 31-34.
The worst were 8-11, 15-19, 23, and 35-36.
So I'm not sure you have enough data to support your thesis. Maybe when you're older.
No, not "distant gay traces" -- it's distingué traces!
WAHT! Well I'd say life is
WAHT! Well I'd say life is cool in a non sexualised way until school. then it can be crappy until sixth form, at 16. anyhoo, my favourite celebs are all around 34-8 with a few exceptions, I'd say people don't hit their best until at least that age, so it doesn't matter if someone's not out at 30 because although it might be harder to learn at that age and fit in, they would not be as attractive as they had been younger anyways imo, life experience just improves personality and that translates into how people look as well
oh and, seriously? saying "no, wrong" just reminds me of that transphobic radio guy rob or arnie i don't know which. I'd assume your opinions differ from his, and his opinions were the worst thing but it also annoyed me when he said stuff like that, like "no, your're wrong", how unvalid. how can you say 'no, wrong' like its fact when there are people who disagree on here, or even if there weren't? why be negative or depressing when there's no reason?
________________________________
"there's always time for a burrow..."
"We're getting fired, fired, fired, firedddd"
*** meep meep! ***
This is why God gave us support groups
Future epitaph: "It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Seriously, when I was in college I attended a men's discussion group, as well as a gay youth group. (The latter, obviously, was much more focused on coming out issues, since its members were the proverbial "newbies.") I've known kids in high school who'd been out for a couple years, as well as men who'd married and had kids and come out well past 30. The best thing for ANYONE who's newly out is to have a network of friends and peers with whom to talk about these issues, and hopefully get to know slowly before starting the dating process.
My biggest mistake was letting an eighteen-year-old tell me that I was the guy of his dreams, even though I told him that it was very, very dangerous for him to try to make that kind of commitment at that phase of his coming-out. (I was 21, and had dated about 5 guys over a couple years by this point.) But I was so taken with his devotion and his sweetness, I let my heart overrule my head, and sure enough, he dumped me less than 2 months later for a fling with someone else. We then got back together for another year and a half, and he dumped me AGAIN. The next two guys I dated were also "newbies," and there was mucho emotional baggage (them because they were newly "out," me because I was still on the rebound and trying to get over it). Things got much more "stable" when I moved to SF and started dating people who'd been out for even just a little while--there was just much less drama and pressure. And the guy I wound up marrying had been out for a good eight years or so before we met, had dated several guys, had his heart broken once, and was consequently very clear about what he wanted in a relationship. We've hung in there for 15 years.
So, my opinion would be, if you can be a friend to someone coming out, take the opportunity--it's a rare gift. However, be warned that dating the newly out can definitely pose some risks of heartbreak to one or both of you.
Dating A Newbie
Food for thought
Food for thought with this episode of Mores. I guess I would have to classify myself as a newbie. Insightful to get the perspective of the experienced date and why they might be reluctant to date a newbie. ie the newbie now that he has tasted the forbidden fruit will want more and go off to sow their wild oats with others. Hopefully if I were to enter into a relationship I would have enough self-awareness of my limited dating skill set that I would not revert back to a teenager. Just be honest about where you are at and take things slowly. Its just like Boyd said earlier when he quoted the Eartha Kitt song: Proceed with caution / but lover, please proceed. (love a man who can quote Eartha...goddess)
Michael, I wrote a post last night at about 3am and I timed out or something and it vanished into the ether of cyberspace never to be seen again. I had a young internet friend come out a year or so ago and I'll try and see if I can find some of the stuff that I researched and gave him. I'll PM you later. May not be much as he was in England and I was trying to get stuff that was geared for him over there. Now hopefully the cyber gods will be kind and let this message post!
ah, the in-laws
"Does this cocktail glass make me look fat?"
Being staright, i never
Being staright, i never disrespect Gays. I think it's there personal choice to choose to their partner either same gender or opposite.
________________________________________-
Ben
Dating