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News, Reviews & Commentary on Gay and Bisexual Men in Entertainment and the Media

Steps forward, steps back: Ground lost in Arizona, Florida, and likely California

 

On the upside, President-elect Barack Obama included gay Americans in his victory speech last night as he spoke of the country uniting for change.

But in California, gay citizens are fairly sure to lose their right to marry as Proposition 8, a bill that seeks to change the very language of the state's constitution to discriminate against same-sex marriage, is almost certain to pass. And in Arizona and Florida, voters passed anti-gay ballot measures to ban same-sex marriage in their states.

Congratulations to all who voted in favor of these propositions. I hope you can sleep better tonight knowing that you've denied your gay friends, family members, neighbors and fellow citizens the basic right to marry the person they love.

This is sad, infuriating, downright disgusting news, and our thoughts are with gays and lesbians in these states whose civil liberties have been compromised in the shadow of last night's historic victory. Change can't come soon enough. 

Liz T's picture

UGH :-/

I can't understand it. i got a text that said "how does Barack Obama win presidency, yet these places are losing rights to marry and adopt based on sexuality?"

it makes no sense. I know ignorance will always be out there, yes, but i also thought there was less of it. tsk, what a freaking shame.

I wonder if this means more states will just go for "civil unions" now instead of marriage. lots of people said CA would've been the "make or break" place for all this.

 

Zeta's picture

Barack Obama was the cause


"Every ethnic group supported marriage equality, except African-Americans, who voted overwhelmingly against extending to gay people the civil rights once denied them: a staggering 69 - 31 percent African-American margin against marriage equality. That's worse than even I expected. Whites, on the other hand, clearly rejected discrimination: 55 to 45 percent. Latinos were evenly split." -Andrew Sullivan
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Liz T's picture

what?

I'm lost. how was Barack the cause? If i remember correctly, he was on the No on 8 side.

Sadly, i think this just means our fight is not over. this would've been a huuuuge victory. but no.....20 steps back.

 

Zeta's picture

Simple

African American voters show up in record numbers to support Obama.

Obama's against Proposition 8, but most other African Americans are for it.

2+2=4.  Obama caused more African Americans to vote for him, but they voted for Prop 8 at the same time, ignoring his stance.  All they wanted was a man in the White House and fuck the other minorities.

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Liz T's picture

ok, then...

Ok, African Americans did come out in large numbers to vote for Obama....but i don't think it's fair to blame Obama. HE did not have power over this.  In the end, it is the people's choice. citizens of CA. Just like the presidential election. it's all left to the voters.  

I am sure there were white people who voted for Prop 8 as well. A lot of mormons i bet. (anyone know the % of mormons in CA?)

 

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Zeta's picture

You forget

That Obama was in those African American religious rallies along with people who supported Prop 8.  He may have been vocally against it, but actions speak louder than words.  And the African American religious community has spoken - Fags don't Deserve Rights.
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Liz T's picture

*curses*

" Obama was in those African American religious rallies along with people who supported Prop 8."

^ i didn't know that. got a link? ugh, if that's true....it makes me even more pissed about the whole situation. how dare he then mention us in his freaking speech. all that crap about "hopsital rights" and UGGGGH.

you know what? i think i am just too emotional to think clearly right now. i am going to step away for a while and go have a nice scream in the shower.

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Jeremymlad's picture

Estimated percentage

you_will wrote:
I am sure there were white people who voted for Prop 8 as well. A lot of mormons i bet. (anyone know the % of mormons in CA?)

"Members of the LDS Church make up maybe 2-3% of the population of California, and that's being extremely generous with the statistic," reported the inactive Mormon who is resigning his membership today.

Michael Jensen's picture

But it was the very white Mormon Church

that poured millions of dollars into California and that is likely what pushed the amendment over the top. I think it is pointless to try and blame a group for this defeat other than anti-gay people. Face it, it was George Bush, Karl Rove and other WHITE Republicans who have used this issue against the Democrats for decades now, but no one feels the need to blame white people. And BTW, African-America leaders have been remarkably progressive on gay rights for a very long time.
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James Hillis's picture

Michael is right....

Scapegoating other minority communites gets us nowhere.

And the gay mov't itself has often failed terribly at being inclusive. We need to get ourselves right instead of pointing the finger. That's where the strength and moral authority will come from to eventually change the political landscape.

And how many images of color were featured in No on Prop 8 ads? I did an article for AE a while back where African-American gays basically said that straight people of color saw gay rights as white people stuff. Because that was the only images they saw. Because for too long those were the only images we put out there. So people of color didn't see gay rights as being about their sibling, their child, their neighbor.

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RJ's picture

Stop blaming African-Americans

African-Americans only make up about 6.2% of the population in California while Caucasions make up 58.9%. Asian-Americans make up 12.3%. Hispanics/Latinos (of any race) make up a whopping 35.9% of the population.

Here are some other oft-quoted numbers: there are supposedly over 1 million gays and lesbians in California but reportedly only about 30,000 contributed to No on 8.

If you must assign blame, point your finger at the bigots in every ethnic group and at the out-of-state Mormons who poured money in to fund ads full of lies.

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James Hillis's picture

Heartbreaking

Last night gave you such a euphoric, joyous sense of possibility. To have all that hope share a space with the pain of all these losses, all these put-downs of gay people and our rights - it's painful.

 When the Supreme Court overturned the nation's sodomy laws in 2003 - basically saying for the first time that it was unconstitutional to make being gay illegal - Justice Antonin Scalia, hero to the far right, blamed the Court's overturn of those laws on what he decried as an "anti, anti-homosexual" atmosphere that had permeated the legal profession. By that he meant that "law" people had become ok with gay people, and they and their life-partners had become accepted within the legal community both socially and professionally.

 He was right. Gays & Lesbians in the legal profession came out in huge numbers within the profession between 1986 when the Supreme Court upheld Sodomy laws and 2003 when they finally overturned those laws. And it was that familiarity with gay people, and the lgbt's refusal to conceal or take a back seat that changed the legal culture and eventually changed the law.

 A lot of lgbt and progressive people worked hard on these recent political fights. But what needs to happen is for each of us lgbt people - whether celebrities, or politicians, or artists, lawyers, teachers, all of us - to be visibile and honest. That's what will change the culture and eventually the law.

 Barack Obama is possible in part because of the extraordinary achievements of highly visibile and gifted African-Americans before him. Gay people need to be visible in that same way.

 

   

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joeyhegele's picture

Thank you Obama supporters

Thanks for nothing.
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Cirpricio's picture

Love will prevail

 Fist of all congratulations America for your new president!!!

 

 

And I know that the news on prop 8 are depressing but I hear the speech of acceptance of Obama and something that he said about everything that happen from slavery to the first black president make me realize that good things take some time but when we finally get them they worth so much more for what it took. And we are talking about love here and for more cheesy that it sound, love always wins.

The secret, I think, is keep with our lives and show them what love means for us.

In Argentina we don’t have same sex marriage but last weekend a very famous comedian (who happens to be a transvestite) got “married” with her boyfriend of then years (who is divorce and have two kids with his ex-wife) as if they were in a religious ceremony and lots of people went to witness the event. Here the link (its in Spanish of course but in some point she said that you should NEVER stop dreaming).

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abL75IsA2bk 

 Just a curious tip:

In Argentina you have to marry twice: once on the church and once on the civil registry. Religious ceremony have no legal value whatsoever. You can be marry by a priest, a rabbi, a pastor or what ever religion figure you want, but if you want your marriage to be recognized by the law you have to be marry on a civil level.

Greeting from Argentina.

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julesinthisrealm's picture

For the people, by the people?

I am all in favor of a government that is for the people, by the people.  But what kind of perversity allows some citizens to vote away the rights of other citizens?  Is that really a right? 
Psionycx's picture

This was not Obama

The challenge posed by ballot measures like these is that the de-couple support for candidates and parties from support for individual issues.  A lot of African-Americans and Latinos are very religiously conservative.  So even if they voted for Obama that doesn't mean they voted no on Prop 8 or the other state ballot measures.

I've been saying for a long time that we cannot neglect the need to appeal to the mass of the population in campaigning for equality.  Court cases cannot solve all problems, especially not in states like California where it is so easy to pass amendments like this one.  Unfortunately, overly-idealistic people like to rant that the rights of a minority should never be subject to majority approval.

That may be true in principle, but it is not true in legal fact.  The reality is that under our system the majority can deny rights to minorities.  That's why it took so long for women and blacks to win the right to vote in this country, and why questions of equality are still being fought at length.

We can't pretend that everything can be settled in court.  From the look of things Proposition 8 won by a fairly narrow margin.  That suggests to me that majority support for marriage equality is not unattainable, but it cannot be taken for granted.  If we'd had more time we might have won through communication and neutralizing the slander the bigots were spewing.  

This is a repeat of the lessons learned first in Hawaii and Alaska, and subsequently in dozens of other states: we can not ignore the need to win over the general public.

Zeta's picture

How can we win?

With truth when our opponents use lies, like showing teachers forcing students to be gay?  There aren't enough of us.
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Psionycx's picture

Look to civil rights history

Women had to prove that that they could think rationally, not just emotionally, and also make decisions independently of their husbands in their quest for suffrage.  African-Americans had to overcome entrenched depictions of them in popular media as slow-witted, shifty and untrustworthy.

This is why I cringed when this court ruling came down.  Because in the short time between it and the election it would be possible for opponents to put out a heavily spin doctored counter-campaign to go with their ballot initiative. Timing is often everything.  Given more time it would have been possible to trot out countless examples of how their claims were false. 

It has been my long-standing opinion that we need to work on the general public more before taking these kinds of cases to court, rather than after.  The proof that a lot of the opponents claims are false can be found in the other countries that have legalized same-sex marriage as well as states like Massachusetts. 

But you have to remember that not many people are very socially-aware.  I often find in having conversations with people outside the gay community(and sometimes within it) that there are a lot of misconceptions about same-sex marriage.  A lot of people really do (inaccurately) believe for example that priests and ministers are legally-obliged to marry anyone in their churches so long as the marriage itself is legal.  Opponents know this isn't true, but they claim it is because they know that their audiences are likely to take their word for it.

So you have people believing things like the spurious claim that their priest will be prosecuted for saying that same-sex marriage is counter to the doctrine of their face or that their church will be punished by the state for not performing same-sex weddings.

We also have to admit and acknowledge that some of their claims are true.  Public school teachers will have to admit to students that same-sex marriage is legal if in fact it is.  They won't be able to deny it.  And I know plenty of fanatics within the gay community that will happily sue any teacher or school district that tries to not talk about the issue with students.  So in that regard some of our opponents arguments contain and grain of truth and we need to be mindful before filing some of the other lawsuits we're all too fond of.

There's a lot of educating that we need to do here in order to win this battle.  Swaying the general public is a lot harder than swaying a handful of judges.  But we live in a democracy and when all is said and done the judges sit at the sufference of the people.  We can't neglect the power of voters to deny us our rights.  Instead we need to convince them we deserve those rights.

It's not fair, but it is what it is.

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Janet's picture

Exactly right...

....this is archaic. Have any of these trogladites that voted against gay marriage ever cast their eyes toward Canada? (do they even know where Canada is???) Has gay marriage caused the apocolypse up here? Are people marrying their pets? Have all our children suddenly turned gay? Is Christian marriage crumbling to the ground? Hell, no. Not a bloody thing has changed except that a whole bunch of people are happier and more secure. End of story. 

But I still say, even up here, we have to be ever vigilant in protecting the rights we have. It can all be taken away in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

 

I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.

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Psionycx's picture

Stephen Harper is worrisome isn't he?

But you raise a great point.  I commented to a Canadian colleague about their recent election.  His response was shock because I was the only American he'd spoken to who knew that they'd had an election up there!

As I said before, Americans are not very socially-aware, and we're usually almost oblivious to foreign politics entirely.  Studies have shown that most Americans cannot name the prime ministers of Canada or the UK for example.

This is especially striking in the debate over same-sex marriage.  Because one thing I have noticed is that the debate here in the US really is framed as if we are the first people in the world to confront this issue and there's no precedent for what will happen in society.

Catholic priests, for example, have not been happy about same-sex marriage in other countries or in Massachusetts.  But not one of them has been forced to perform a same-sex marriage against their will or allow it to happen in their church.  But that doesn't mean that our opponents aren't lying to their audiences and telling them about how their priest will have to perform same-sex weddings or else his church will lose tax-exempt status or he might even be arrested!

When these kinds of lies are told many listeners believe them because they don't know otherwise.  The horror stories help get them fired up to oppose marriage equality because of all the dire (and entirely imaginary) threats that they are told to expect.

We spend a lot of time thinking about and talking about same-sex marriage, so our familiarity with the issue is generally a lot greater than an average straight person's.  But even so I have run into gay people who misunderstand the issue as well.

Until we fix that we have a real problem on our hands.  Most Americans don't even know which of their TV shows are actually filmed in Canada, so why should they know how same-sex marriage has worked out up there?  So how then could they possibly use it as a point of reference?

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Zeta's picture

There are still options

If Prop 8 does pass I don’t see how the California supreme court could not review it and overturn it, unless their previous arguments regarding gay marriage were wrong based on the rest of the constitution.  The part of the constitution they used as the basis for their argument regarding gay marriage hasn’t changed, so if Prop 8 gets added there will definitely be a conflict in the constitution with itself.

Well, for a start, isn’t there the ongoing question about whether it’s actually an amendment, or a constitutional change which requires a larger supermajority? The courts wouldn’t consider that before it passed, but now they will have to. There’s also the point that it conflicts with the equal protection clause, and the courts will have to decide what happens when the constitution contradicts itself. I wouldn’t give up just yet. These are quite arguable points.  Just sad that it now has to go through the courts again and if successful it will be seen as “activist judges” overruling the will of the people yet again.
Nukely's picture

This is the change we need?


Even though they said they opposed Prop 8, both Obama and Biden spoke clearly and often against the right to marry.

It's the uncomfortable irony that will surely go unnoticed in the press. The world celebrates the end of an era of discrimination at the same time confirming a new era of discrimination.

.

 

Zeta's picture

Exactly

The message of the Racial Minorities is now "We've Got Ours, Finally, To Hell with the GLBTS."
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TerrynJames's picture

he said it better!!

e105zeta wrote:
The message of the Racial Minorities is now "We've Got Ours, Finally, To Hell with the GLBTS."

 

thats the thing I was trying to say!! but obviously Zeta beat me to it :)

 

xxx

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nordic balance's picture

I THINK THIS MAY BE ONE OF THE MOST GRATUITOUSLY

HATE-FILLED STATEMENTS I'VE EVER SEEN ON THIS SITE AND THAT INCLUDES THE CHRISTIAN LADY WHO WANTED TO SEND US ALL TO HELL AND THE FANS OF CLAY AIKEN WHO SWORE WE WERE TRYING TO DEFAME HIM OR RECRUIT HIM INTO OUR EVIL CULT OF GAY.

QUOTE:

Exactly

The message of the Racial Minorities is now "We've Got Ours, Finally, To Hell with the GLBTS."

 

WTF? SERIOUSLY?

HOW IS ANYTHING YOU'RE SAYING REASONABLE AND WHY IS EVERYONE JUST GOING ALONG WITH IT?

WHAT EXACTLY DID I "GET" BY HAVING OBAMA ELECTED? 

WHO CONSTITUTES  "OURS" AND THE "GLBTS"

 

 

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TerrynJames's picture

I never thought I'd see the day.

I have to admit that its easy for me to sit here and be all *omg* about the whole thing because I'm in the UK, but I really am just amazed! I genuinely feel for anyone who is living in the states where they have lost the right to marry the person they love! It feels like such a double edge sword that while one minority group is celebrating while another is comisterating.

I'm not 100% sure how american politics work, but is there anything that we can do in the UK to help fight this?  (and yes I do know how blonde i sound here, I just wish there was something we could do on our side of the water to help fight this bigotry!!)  

 

Psionycx's picture

The UK taught a valuable lesson...

...that American gay rights activists have largely ignored because it's unpalatable.

In the UK the compromise was made to give gays the right to "civil partnerships", which are marriages in all but name.  Legally they are almost identical to marriage under UK law. Many people were unhappy to not have the name "marriage", but the compromise on nomenclature allowed for broad support for the law and even Conservative leader David Cameron and many of his people voted in favor of it. Ironically, a lot of people, including straight ones, nonetheless ignore the nomenclature issue and say that gay people are getting "married" when they get a civil partnership.

Here in the US, in keeping with our proud tradition of absolutist politics, gay rights activists have been just as militant about all-or-nothing marriage equality as our adversaries have been about opposing us entirely.

The problem here is that one of the biggest hangups Americans (like the British) had was over the word "marriage" itself.  Civil partnerships evoke a much less emotional response, even if they are practically identical to marriage in legal terms.  They also often serve as a necessary psychological stepping stone to marriage equality.  Even the Netherlands, hands down one of the most liberal countries on Earth, went through a civil partnerships phase before realizing that it was pointless not to just grant marriage equality.  In the end they were the first country in the world to do so.

We've handed the conservatives the advantage in this fight by making the word "marriage" a non-negotiable core element of this debate.  Since the general population's main hangup here is the word "marriage" itself we find ourselves fighting a more uphill battle than we might really need to.

As civil partnerships in the UK become a more common part of life it is likely that eventually people will forget why they didn't just call them "marriages" in the first place.  They may then become "marriage" in name as well as fact.

In the US I think we need to be really thoughtful in deciding if the word is truly so critical in the short-term.  I do know that a lot of gay people have wholly unrealistic expectations of same-sex marriage.  If their parents disapprove of their homosexuality and despise their partner now, then legally marrying their partner is unlikely to change things much as an example.  I know straight married people whose parents loathe their spouses!

The best gift we get from the UK is the growing number of visible celebrities in public civil partnerships.  Send us more of those please.  A lot more.  We can use the case studies.

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Zeta's picture

You know, we should just

Force the entire cast of Harry Potter to get gay married.  That would win the US over. : p
seanID22's picture

Gay people militant?

Not since 1990 or so... gay people are apathetic and tired of defending their lives and happy to hide in a circle of supportive friends and bury our heads. I do not think most gay people are gay rights activists, per se. Many just allow others to do the work. I would love to see "militant" gay people.

 As for who to blame... The Mormon money from out of state pouring in. And the old people. Every election we have, more old people will have died and eventually they'll be gone. So we can keep trying here.

 As for the black vote, are the exit polls accurate? Alameda County, which includes Oakland, heavily black, rejected the measure. The bulk of support for the opposition seems to have come from conservative white counties.

Now, I think soem people are quick to get more offended about black opposition because we feel like they ought to know better (gay people do that with women too who oppose our rights)... but we all know that prejudices - sometimes even antigay ones - exist within the gay community too. Many people do not take their own minority status and use to emphathize with other minorities, instead some want to reject their own minority status in favor of white straight male power.

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Psionycx's picture

Militant about the word "marriage"

But gay people, at least the gay people who engage in regular activism, are extremely militant about the word "marriage".

I can't even begin to describe how many times I've been visciously flamed, accused of being an Uncle Tom, of being a self-hating homo and many other things, for daring to suggest that it is okay to accept civil partnerships as a short-term milestone in the long-term fight for marriage equality.

It's a major reason I've become so disenchanted by gay rights groups.  They're often as fanatical as our opponents and just as prone to direct their hatred inwards at dissenters from the party line.

seanID22's picture

marriage

Well you know, free speech doesn't mean you won't be criticized, attacked or shunned... and sometimes that comes from your friends.

 When I'm tempted to be angry at gay people, or gay activists, I think of first how much more disagreement and problems I have with straight men - in general, and secondly the fact that gay people's problems are entirely understandable given our situations.

As for passionate attacks against those "outside party lines," I do agree that infighting is incredibly useless but anger and passion is entirely understandable when our love lives are put on ballots and debated in public with lies.

Psionycx's picture

If one regards this as a war...

...which conservatives certainly do, their vaunted "Culture Wars", then one must have a coherent battle plan because wars are rarely one simply by passionate emotion.

My complaint is so much that I get flamed as why I get flamed.  It's because I don't agree with the battle plan (or lack of one) in the pursuit of the goal.  We gain nothing from being blindly idealistic here.  This is a war being fought on a legal and political battlefield and thus rules, not ideals, apply.

I certainly don't appreciate being a second class citizen.  But I also recognize that any war needs to be won battle-by-battle.  You also need to be careful not to over-extend or else you might find yourself losing (as was the case yesterday, and in the 27 other odd states that have successfully banned same-sex marriage). 

Success requires strategy aimed at attainable goals, which are not always the same as the goals you actually want.  Just like in a real war, as the quagmire in Iraq has shown.

OneWorld's picture

Big difference between UK and USA

In the UK, they have a state religion (christianity). The Head of state (the Queen) is also the head of the Church of England.

In America, there is supposed to be official separation of church and state. So, there should be gay marriage in USA before the UK because in the USA all these religious arguments should not be used against gay marriage. Marriage isn't necessarily a religious union and gay marriage should not threaten your particular religious marriage and religions should not be a threat to gay marriage in USA. But, sadly, in the US, people are constantly mixing church and state.

travshad's picture

Can't marry in the UK either

California has comprehensive domestic partnership laws that offer all the legal benefits and responsibilities that California marriages offered (since neither offer any Federal recognition).  The main difference is that partnerships are easier to get (no liscence or ceremony) and are easier to end (divorce requires the party to live in California).  The main difference between Civil Partnerships and marriage in the UK also seems to be how the union is registered and disolved.   California domestic partnerships are really just the equivalent of a UK Civil Partnership (again except for the no Federal recognition).

 

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Zeta's picture

You know what?

This election almost made me racist till I remembered those poor people who are a racial AND a sexual minority. Being Gay and Black and Gay and Muslim is like losing the lottery of life. : (  Poor bastards.

You know what gays need? An ugly friend. You always look better when there's someone worse nearby. We need someone to rally for Furry Rights or the right to Marry Feet or something. It'd make us look better in comparison.
Joey's picture

You're sad

e105zeta wrote:
This election almost made me racist...

Almost?!

Sorry dude, but when you walk like a duck & talk like a duck, you are a duck.

If gays are just as racist as straights, how can we expect minorities to not be just homophobic as white people???

 

 

Zeta's picture

Sorry, but reporting statistical facts

Reporting statistical facts isn't racist.  And most polls are showing that African Americans and Mormons combined are what tipped this over.  You can not like it all you want, but it's the truth.
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Psionycx's picture

We knew this going in though

People looking at the numbers in the months leading up to this knew that African-Americans (and Latinos) would be problematic on Prop 8 because, even though they were likely to vote for Obama, they tend to be rather religious (and often homophobic) and thus were likely to vote Yes on Prop 8 at the same time.

Rather than obsessing over something that was no more of a surprise than the fact that white Evangelicals tended to vote for McCain, we should look to question of what we can do about it.

Obviously we have poor awareness in some of these communities.  It doesn't help that their clergy tend to oppose gay rights but that can't be fixed.  However, believe it or not people do disobey their clergy all the time (Catholics do use condoms and birth control pills Virginia!) if they see a reason.

It is apparent that we have not been successful in reaching out to certain communities and we're going to need to do better.  I know from my own dating history that there are a lot of gay Latinos.  I also know how many of them weren't out to their friends and family. This is an example of why we do poorly in winning support from certain demographics.

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RJ's picture

such an ignorant statement

6.2% percent and 2% of the population (African-Americans and Mormons, respectively) are the reason Prop 8 passed?

You seriously don't think the 58.9% Caucasian population had a more significant role?

Your "truth" isn't the entire truth.

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Psionycx's picture

The margins

The margin of victory was rather small, about 4%

The LDS Church provided an absolutely amazing amount of money for the Prop 8 campaign, so their numerical percentage is less significant than their financial contributions.

We also had a gap with African-Americans and with Latinos (whom you do not mention) who generally voted Democrat but apparently did not vote no on Prop 8.

There's certainly no question that we also had an issue in the white population but that shouldn't be a surprise either.  Being white in California does not mean one is automatically a liberal.  As with the rest of the US there are plenty of conservative white people.  Many states that went blue or red in this election did so by fairly narrow margins.  You have to take into account that white people are as likely to be anti-gay as anyone.

However, I was responding to commentary, some of it somewhat racist, aimed at Obama and/or African/Americans.  Obama personally did not support Prop 8.  African-American support for it is believed to have been substantial but as I noted that was known going in. 

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RJ's picture

I mentioned Latinos in an earlier post

Btw, my comment that you replied to was not directed at you. My point was that demonizing any racial group is counter-productive and wrong. And as you pointed out, the influence of the Mormons was not in their own votes (a given on the Pro-8 side) but the influx of out-of-state money to fund their lying advertising campaign.
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lenny's picture

Huh?

Where are you getting your "statistical facts," Zeta?

it's always so nice to be marginalized in the gay community.  no one needs your pity.  i am no one's poor bastard.

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Zeta's picture

CNN. 70% of African

CNN. 70% of African Americans supported Proposition 8, more than any other race.  With a 4% margin of victory, they were the tipping factor.  The Mormon Church is to be blamed, as well.
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Psionycx's picture

Which definitely does

Provide the necessary 4.34% to put the "Yes" side ahead.
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Zeta's picture

Yes, until

Until we confront the problem of the religious disconnect, racism, and homophobia between the gay and African American cultures, we'll have more trouble like this in the future.
Psionycx's picture

That's why I said...

That's why I said we need to do better in communicating with these communities.  Simply lumping them as "enemies" and dismissing them does us absolutely no good.

Because of strong homophobia in some of these communities we have a problem winning their support politically.  It has nothing to do with a bond between the persecuted.  The Mormons were once aggressively persecuted too, but that hasn't made them particularly tolerant after all.

But with so many minority gays in the closet and on the down low, it is very easy for anti-gay forces to cast homosexuality as a "white, liberal" thing, which is exactly what they do. We don't have a loud voice in these communities to counter that and it leaves us at a disadvantage in winning them over.

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lenny's picture

and now you see fit...

to throw the whole race under the bus?  I think you need to take a closer look at the stats.  your knee-jerk and bigoted reaction is pretty offensive.  blame can't be placed on any one race.
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RJ's picture

Zeta, why aren't you blaming whites...

... for not providing the extra 4-5% needed to defeat Prop 8? You could just as easily say the white vote was "the tipping factor". This racial blame game you're pushing is pointless, and frankly, offensive.

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nordic balance's picture

Zeta You Are Being Completely Unfair In Your Analysis

From what I understand, African Americans (as a race) represent a VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE of the OVERALL POPULATION OF CALIFORNIA

Do you seriously believe that African Americans in California ALONE are the reason that Proposition 8 Passed?

Do you not get that the PARTICULAR AFRICAN AMERICANS about whom you're speaking are homophobic based upon CHRISTIANITY, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACk.

IT'S NOT LIKE THERE IS SOME HOMOPHOBIC BLACK/BROWN GENE THE FOLKS INHERIT.

Do you not get that NON-PROGRESSIVE CHRISTIANS (WHITE, BLACK, LATIN, ASIAN) ARE ANTI-GAY BECAUSE THEY ARE CHRISTIANS.

I'm really trying to understand (beyond just race baiting) what your point is.

Do you really not get that THERE ARE GAY PEOPLE OF EVERY ETHNICITY, RACE AND CULTURE in the country?

Should ALL GAY PEOPLE CHALLENGE ALL CALIFORNIA NON-GAY, NON-PROGRESSSIVE CHRISTIAN AFRICAN AMERICANS TO A RUMBLE?

As for all the closeted BLACK/LATINO MEN ON THE DOWN LOW comments, if the reason why they are closeted is BECAUSE they are Black and Latino,

What exactly is the explaination for ALL OF THE CLOSETED, AFFLUENT, WHITE MEN people spend so much time on this very site complaing about?

The "down low" is just "THE CLOSET" by another name.

AND THE REASON ANYONE IS CLOSETED IS BECAUSE OF HOMOPHOBIA AND HETEROSEXISM. PEOPLE ARE CLOSETED BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID AND/OR SELF-HATING.

IT ALL COMES FROM THE SAME PLACE: FEAR OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU IF PEOPLE FIND OUT THAT YOU ARE GAY.

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Zeta's picture

Because obviously something is out of whack

Every other race voted about 55/45.

But African Americans voted 70/30.

Is that not a significant difference?  Can we not talk about the obvious cultural disconnect without being branded a racist?  The fact of the matter is that these numbers prove that black people are generally more anti-gay than other races.  Period.  I've talked to gay black people who have experienced this first hand.

 

I'm not saying they're evil or the enemy.  I'm say this is an incredibly big issue that needs to be addressed.  And it won't be if we just sweep it under the rug because pointing out any differences is racism.

It all comes from the same place: fear of what whill happen to you if people find out you are gay, yes - but doesn't this prove that this fear is greater for African-American gays for whatever reason?  I'm not saying it's genetic, if anything it's probably cultural.  There's nothing wrong with black people mentally, physically, or spiritual in and of themselves.  But a 20-30% difference on this issue with other races and cultures obviously shows that there is something here that needs to be examined.  But if anyone who tries to do so is called a racist, we'll never get anywhere.

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