The Wrap with Two Gay Guys! video blog: The best gay movies, new media, and "The Cho Show"
Brent and Michael share their top five choices for AfterElton.com's 50 Best Gay Movies poll, discuss whether Kathy Griffin went too far this season, and wonder how "new" media is effecting how we entertain ourselves. Plus, they review Margaret Cho's new program, The Cho Show. Check all this and more out, after the break! Submitted by on Wed, 2008-08-13 09:16. "affecting" not "effecting"Submitted by
dgchgo (1472 points) (280 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-13 15:27.That's a tough one, I know -- I'm always having to teach that one to my colleagues. And I have to stop and think about it sometimes myself.
I loved the Object of mySubmitted by
Randommer (1130 points) (235 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-13 18:03.I loved the Object of my Affection! Heh, it's interesting that you mention Murial's Wedding in conjunction with Priscilla. Bill Hunter was in both films, shooting at the exact same time. The director said one day he came from the Murial's set and annouced ominously 'they're doing ABBA'. Screenwriter's response?Submitted by
dgchgo (1472 points) (280 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 09:53.What a great story, Randommer! I wonder if, in respoonse to Bill's lament, the screenwriter wrote the immortal line for Terrence Stamp: "No more f*cking ABBA!"
Heh. No idea. TheSubmitted by
Randommer (1130 points) (235 posts) on Fri, 2008-08-15 13:44.Heh. No idea. The director's commentary on Priscilla is great. At one point, he mentions that he initially wanted to cast actual drag queens, but ran into problems when he had casting at ten in the morning, and no one showed up. He also took the three guys out one night toally dragged up to see if they would be recognised. Guy Pearse was a HUGE soap star in Australia at the time, and he loved being incognito. Brent, your not alone...Submitted by
Sethanel (190 points) (39 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-13 21:10.I'm not sitting in my bathroom... oh god no... I would never do that!
Don't worry Michael, the water is designed to drain into the sink, not onto the floor :D. Only time Kathy Griffin went over the line...Submitted by
NukeYenta (25 points) (5 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 16:23.was when she gave Anderson Cooper a free pass. What the hell was that about? She's all over Gaiken, but doesn't even mention that Anderson comes across as so gay? I was stunned. The Object of My AffectionSubmitted by
db (3125 points) (650 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 16:42.I have to admit that, despite loving Paul Rudd, I did not care for The Object of My Affection. I think it may be that I really liked the book and didn't like some of the changes--specifically the Jennifer Aniston character in the book is a sort of chubby but sexy girl. I know it's Hollywood and that's what they do but it annoyed me. More annoying was the way they changed the character of the lead's boyfriend. In the movie they made him a very young actor, if I remember in the book he was an older guy with a child and far more interesting. I blame Wendy Wasserstien for it--she just turned it into a rather usual story. I like the rest of your choices--It was really hard narrowing the list to 5, and then I keep getting reminded of other movies I love. I was freakin' enragedSubmitted by
Distingué Traces (412 points) (91 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 17:17.I was freakin' enraged by Object of My Affection. Every single character had been altered to better fit stereotype in an insulting way. I exited the movie spitting fire, and my unfortunate companion had to endure an evening-long diatribe that was really meant for the ears of Ms. Wasserstein.
No, not "distant gay traces" -- it's distingué traces! Wasserstein was a hackSubmitted by
I actually disagree with Michael about AFFECTION--I didn't like it much at all (except for Rudd shirtless). But the reason is absolutely Wendy Wasserstein, who wrote one mildly interesting play (HEIDI) that was very much in tune with the zeitgeist, and then cracked out total crap for the rest of her career. She wrote in broad stereotypes--Neil Simon without his semi-wit. She was in the right place at the right time. Couldn't agree with you more about the hack-i-tude, the complete hack-erosity that is Wendy Wasserstein.
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com Average (1 vote): Oh my god, thank you.Submitted by
Distingué Traces (412 points) (91 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 17:53.Oh my god, thank you. It wasn't even just the gay characters, although that (goodbye, gay single parent! Hello, childlike Broadway chorus boy!) was plenty. The treatment of the heroine was at least as patronizing -- with the Cop Charming showing up out of nowhere in the last reel so she'd have someone to pair off with. Argh!
No, not "distant gay traces" -- it's distingué traces! Well Wendy's dead so you can stop screamingSubmitted by
David Ehrenstein (7480 points) (1657 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 17:37.The Object of My Affection took 11 fucking years to get off the ground. When he started it (producer) Larry Mark (gay) thought it would be the easiest gay film to make. But it was like pulling teeth. Roadblocks to the right of him, roadblocks to the left of him. Script after script until Wendy Wasserstein finally came up with one everyone was willing to sign onto. Luckily they got a gay man to direct.
And Nigel Hawthorne too.
Paul Rudd is unspeakably lovely in it. No matter what else he does he'll always be "George" to me. Especially for the moment when he and Jennifer Aniston dance to "You Were Meant For Me" at the party. That is roughly the line taken ten years agoSubmitted by
Distingué Traces (412 points) (91 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 18:00.That is roughly the line taken ten years ago by my irritated date. Although Wasserstein was not then dead. It's certainly true that Paul Rudd was handsome. But as far as the changes being necessary -- Torch Song Trilogy had been made ten years previous to that with a star (Matthew Broderick was at that time quite big) and far fewer compromises on the subject matter.
No, not "distant gay traces" -- it's distingué traces! Yes, but 1 difference.Submitted by
Joseph (6977 points) (1423 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 18:51.Torch Song Trilogy was based on a widely celebrated, Tony Award-winning play by a writer who'd had another widely celebrated, Tony Award-winning musical in the interim; The Object of My Affection was based on a largely unknown novel by a largely unknown writer (I only discovered the book when it was announced Jennifer Aniston and Paul Rudd were starring in it). As much as I loved the book, I understand why certain changes were made; the ending of the book left a sour, unhappy taste in my mouth--now, that's fine in a book, but difficult to pull off in a movie, where the audience wants a satisfying ending (heck, my mother still bitches about the "ambiguous" ending of 1961's The Innocents!). I probably side more with Michael regarding The Object of My Affection: not a great film, but certainly an entertaining, extremely well-acted film, and an important signpost on the journey of gay men in cinema. And, yes, my adoration of Paul Rudd remains constant thanks to his portrayal of George. Wendy Wasserstien's HackitudeSubmitted by
db (3125 points) (650 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-14 23:47.I know Wendy Wasserstein is greatly loved by the people who knew her--but none of her plays--including HEIDI are especially good. Without Joan Allen or an actress of that calibur the play makes no sense. Her later plays are all just talky, preachy, messes. My main annoyance with the movie is the way she changed the boyfriend into the pretty young actor. I read an interview with her where she said the character in the book just didn't work for her so she wrote something that did. I am here to tell you from experience that DATING PRETTY YOUNG ACTORS IS ALMOST NEVER A GOOD IDEA. Really David Ehrenstein, as far as I'm concerned it would have been okay had the movie not been made because it's just sort of a generic, dull muddle. And as for the book being unknown before the movie, that's just not true, it had sold respectively well for a gay novel--even getting a little crossover, and had been well reviewed in many journals--I will do research if you want me to. HEDWIG WAS NEVER ON BROADWAYSubmitted by
dwperkins (45 points) (7 posts) on Fri, 2008-08-15 23:04.Michael - you did not see Hedwig on Broadway. You saw it OFF BROADWAY FYI.
Michael knew that, he justSubmitted by
Michael knew that, he just misspoke. We've had the conversation about the difference between Broadway and Off Broadway (and Off-Off Broadway) many times. I know he knows the difference, because I've pounded it into his head!
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com no votes While we're on the subject...Submitted by
David E is a Fraud! (315 points) (162 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 17:27....of editing...
"quince" [kwins] is a fruit (HA!). Definately not the same thing as "quince" [KEEN-say], which is 15. A quinceañera is a special birthday for girls in some Spanish-speaking countries, similar to our "sweet 16". Family, friends and relatives celebrate her 'coming of age' at quince años (15 years). It just adds credibility to your recommendation (and in this particular case, more meaning to the story) if it's pronounced correctly. (well.. I think, anyway!) ;^) -Sibelius "It's curtains for you, Dr. Horrible. Lacy, wafting curtains..." I enjoyed Object of My AffectionSubmitted by
ETJB (50 points) (10 posts) on Sat, 2008-08-16 16:40.I have not read the book, by I really thought Object of My Affection was a really good film. I did not feel it was catering to sterotypes, in fact having a major character play a decent and balanced gay man who teaches kids and manages to make it to the end of the film in a good relationship and not dying of AIDS is a cinematic miracle. Perhaps if some people could explain some of the major differences between the book and the film. Yes, I mean te ending was perhaps a very happy Hollywood one that would have made sense then as much as it did at the begining. Yes, you do not see too much in the way of PDA and most of the adults are white and upper middle class.
http://www.geocities.com/edwardtjbrown Object of My AffectionSubmitted by
Psionycx (7891 points) (1601 posts) on Sat, 2008-08-16 17:57.The novel (and the other one of Stephen McCauley's novels that I read The Man of the House) actually kind of annoyed me because they strongly implied that the gay male protagonists really wanted to be with women and it felt like he was saying they were victims of their sexual orientation. The ending in the book was less "Hollywood Happy Ending" than the movie, with the guy still kind of remorseful about not being with the woman, as if his gay relationship were kind of second best. I didn't care for it. I think my main objection to the movie of Object...Submitted by
db (3125 points) (650 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 13:40.is the changes in the secondary characters--In the book the main love interest for the Paul Rudd character is a middle aged man with a child (If I remember correctly--I couldn't find my copy to double check) and in the movie he's a pretty-boy actor who's having some sort of relationship with an older gay man (who seems mostly there to make the other characters more palatable). I read an interview where Wasserstein said she made the change because the character in the book didn't interest her. While it allowed her to go into a theatrical setting that she is familiar with I thought it made the characters less interesting and more typical. No matter what David Ehrenstein says, young actors make for bad love interests. I didn't really care about them changing the ending because I expected it--it's a mainstream Hollywood film. "DATING PRETTY YOUNG ACTORS IS ALMOST NEVER A GOOD IDEA. "Submitted by
David Ehrenstein (7480 points) (1657 posts) on Sat, 2008-08-16 17:16.Bitter, table for one, db? Pretty actors like Paul Rudd are why I go to the movies!
David Ehrenstein--you didn't date Paul RuddSubmitted by
db (3125 points) (650 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 13:42.And you do realize that I wasn't talking about Rudd in this comment but his love interest in the film--whose name I can't even remember and who wasn't even really that cute. And, really, it seems like the pot calling the kettle bitter. :) (Now you've made me resort to using smiley faces). Object and BrokebackSubmitted by
gabriel oak (471 points) (108 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 08:41.I don't dislike The Object of My Affection but I do think it's a bit bland and I wonder if that has to do with Wassersteiln's writing the screenplay. The movie basically works for me because of Paul Rudd who is entirely convincing as a gay man (at least to me) and so endearing in every frame. I do like the way the movie handles a friendship between a gay man and a woman in a less sitcomy way than Will and Grace. It's also one of the few times I didn't get sick of watching Jennifer Anniston. In defense of Wasserstein, I kind of liked her last play Third, which actually was an improvement over some of other work. Why haven't more films been made from McCauley's books? True Enough and Alternatives to Sex would both make good movies. Thanks guys for picking Brokeback as one of your films. I think there's been a bit of backlash against the film since it opened because it was so acclaimed and just watching the clip you showed in your blog made me want to watch the film again. Though you're right, parts of the film are so painful it's not exactly the kind of film you want to watch over and over again, like say Funny Face. (I still wonder why when the film was up for the Oscars, some gay members in the Academy were quoted as disliking the film and voting for Crash. I still don't get that but then we can't all like the same things). I voted for my films about a week ago but since then I've thought of other films that weren't obvious gay films but that I might have voted for. So I wish I could vote again. Ordinary People is a good and interesting choice and I could easily see how a gay boy could identify with the film. I don't think it's a great film but the performances are wonderful. I need to watch that again--I haven't seen it in a long, long time. I saw Trick for the first time recently and really liked it. So I agree it's a good choice. Though I was surprised the actor who plays the songwriter hasn't played another gay role, though I may be wrong about that.. A somewhat similar film is Broadway Damage--though not as good as Trick it has its charms. Actually, Christopher Campbell did play gay againSubmitted by
two years ago on NBC's failed drama The Book of Daniel. He played Peter Webster the gay Republican son of Aidan Quinn's character.
Christopher CampbellSubmitted by
gabriel oak (471 points) (108 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 12:20.Thanks for that information. I never saw that show.
I have "The Book of Daniel"Submitted by
Knickie (3920 points) (800 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 16:15.I have "The Book of Daniel" on DVD and it includes episodes NBC didn't air. It's really a good show.
Bit late with this comment but...oh well...Submitted by
RJ (2901 points) (623 posts) on Sat, 2008-09-06 01:25....better late than never. In case "Trick" is one of the "best gay movies", you should be aware it's Christian Campbell, not Christopher. Object and Broke and Some Other Films...Submitted by
ETJB (50 points) (10 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 10:24.If it is the one that I am thinking about, "Ordinary People" was certainly an influential film for me in my younger years. Objection of My Affection is a great film if for no other reason then it is often aried on Disney/ABC, only slightly edited, and it s heck of a lot better role model for LGBT people then, say, the Birdcage. Brokeback is a wonderful film. It really does pull at your emotional cord because of its tragic love story. Internal and external homophobia keeps them from living happily ever after. A big step for Hollywood and for the actors involved. Their was a Oscar Backlash, and I do feel that the film is -- in many ways -- as much about class oppression and the plight of indigent rural Americans as it is about homophobia and sexism. Thus it has some connection to the gay politics of EM Fosters and Edward Carpenter. The Road Trip -- closted Gay Republican and hippie gay Democrat meet and over the years fall in and out of love in the late 1960s - 1980s. Great independent film that I saw a few years ago. Also 'Its My Party' (1995). 'Saving Face' - Great film about three or four generations of Chinese Americans, with a lesbian daughter and her pregant -- unmarried -- mother. 'Everyone' is a Canadian production, and the script has its low points, but is a great film that deals with the real life challenges of relationships -- gay and straight. 'Touch of Pink' is also a great independent gay film, set in the multicutlural world of UK. 'Unconditional Love' is a grossly undrated film. I should add Victor/Victoria (1982) simply because it was one of the first gay-themed films I saw as a child. Perhaps that could be another topic. I loved the tv series the Book of Dan and was sadden that it got pulled off the air. Although the gay son was somewhere between being in and out, and they did not have much time to get into his political beliefs -- other then his relutence to allow it to define him. On the subject of TV, Buffy and Firefly were both great series.
VICTOR/VICTORIA might not beSubmitted by
VICTOR/VICTORIA might not be a "great" film, but it's almost pure entertainment--the first major "gay" film quite like that. It occupied a BIG place in gay film history, IMHO.
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com Average (1 vote): Tim Dailey played Paul Rudd's ex in "Object"Submitted by
David Ehrenstein (7480 points) (1657 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 14:47.Is that who you were thinking of? Or the younger guy he steals from Nigel Hawthorne?
The younger guySubmitted by
db (3125 points) (650 posts) on Mon, 2008-08-18 19:09.I don't think Tim Dailey's character was an actor was he? It's been awhile since I saw it. He ends up with the young guy.
Brent, you're awesome.Submitted by
the herald (1020 points) (268 posts) on Sun, 2008-08-17 15:07.When you pointed about Kathry Griffin's hypocrisy regarding the Jay Leno thing I became a fan for life. I could not believe this woman who makes her living mocking other would be so thin skinned. Then, when you gave you objective and completly factual assersion that Wasserstein was a hack, I became a fan for the afterlife as well. Thanks.
Good! People are done posting here.Submitted by
fast.cars (35 points) (8 posts) on Sat, 2008-09-06 00:02.Now i can admit in anonymity that I didn't like Brokeback Mountain. It was Jake Gyllenhaal. I didn't like what he did with his Jack. Heath was brilliant as Ennis and almost made up for Jake, but not quite enough. |
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About the 50 Greatest Gay movies
I think the whole voting aspect of this is great, but I really think the editors of the site should not rely 100% on the voting to make their list of the Greatest Gay Movies. I just feel like not including some classics in a list of great gay movies would be terrible. Id hate to see "Paris is Burning" or "Boys in the Band" not make it in because they lacked votes in favor of some crappy 90's movie that showed a lot of skin.
The voting is great to see where people's opinions are, and it makes total sense for something like the Hot 100, but I don't think its wrong for the editors to reserve a couple spots for their most important top picks in this case. That's the point of having editors right?
great picks, guys!
Michael, I'm glad you mentioned Quinceneara. That's an overlooked gem.
One other thing...I can't tell you how frustrating it is when you guys stand in front of that entertainment center. Every week, I miss half of what you're saying because I'm too busy straining my eyes trying to figure out what those dvd's and tapes are.
So far, I think i've identified "Battlefield Earth", the director's cut of "Meet the Spartans", and "Guys Gone Wild, part IV". Am i right?
Ha! Sadly, they're not ours...
Ha! You know, I do exactly
Ha! You know, I do exactly the same thing. And wouldn't it be too funny if the DVDs you mentioned really were on the shelf... I think I did notice "King Kong" on there, though---am I right on that, guys?
I'm like a superhero, with no powers or motivation...
Glad we're so riveting! ;-)
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com no votes