The Wrap with Two Gay Guys! video blog: Vampires are so over
Vampires suck as a gay metaphor! Or so say the Two Gay Guys in this week's installment of The Wrap. The guys spread some love for Mamma Mia and the criminally underappreciated Christine Baranski, debate Weeds' big gay reveal of two weeks ago, and Michael shares an anecdote about his recent TCA meet up with actor Justin Kirk. Check all this and more out, after the break! Submitted by on Wed, 2008-08-06 15:08. So With You about Vampires, Christine Baranski etc...Submitted by
db (3100 points) (645 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-06 20:26.I somehow missed the Susan Sarandon interview which seems really unlike me as I love her so much. Maybe I was away from the computer at that time. I love you vlog--you two are adorable. I probably won't see Wall-E. My partner HATES cartoons (except for Lady and the Tramp and Beauty and the Beast). I love the comment about Anne Rice "before she thought she didn't need an editor". I liked Interview a lot, I liked Vampire Lestat, then I liked parts of Queen of the Damned, but after that I couldn't make it through any of her books. I've loved Christine Baranski for years--but maybe I am old--I won't say. Regarding Weeds--I haven't seen the last couple of seasons as we canceled all of our premium cable channels when the rates went up drastically, but I always thought Weeds was a mediocre show buoyed up by a great cast--and when the whole cast gets up and moves to a different city I think it's a scream for cancellation. It didn't work for Laverne and Shirley why would it work for Weeds? Ironically, the show is better nowSubmitted by
Last season was TERRIBLE. It's actually ticked up a bit this year.
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com no votes google...Submitted by
Bountiful (1280 points) (341 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-06 20:41.So I googled "gay" and "anything" and you were right! An afterelton link was on the first page (sixth link). :) I loved Mamma Mia, but I can see how somebody who's not a particular fan of musicals wouldn't find it as engaging as I did. ![]() RE: "I loved Mamma Mia,Submitted by
nordic balance (not verified) on Wed, 2008-08-06 22:36.RE: "I loved Mamma Mia, but I can see how somebody who's not a particular fan of musicals wouldn't find it as engaging as I did." That's interesting, as I had the completely opposite impression. I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed in the film, mostly because the voices were so absolutely mediocre(or appaulingly bad, as in the case of one ex-James Bond-er). I would think then, and I could be wrong, that those of us musical buffs who are all about the big, bombastic voice might have been a tad less impressed with the film than your typical, casual musical viewer. Meryl Streep, Amanda Sigfried, Christine B and Julie Roberts had passable voices. Colin Firth didn't offend me and Pierce Brosnan was excruciatingly bad. When he sang, I felt as if I was watching a bad American Idol auditions round. In fact, as he sang, I longed for Sanjaya and William Hung. Would any true fan of music and musicals have sat through that if it were on stage on Broadway? I have a tough time not applying live musical standards to movie musicals, considering how much technology they use to mask the flaws in the singers' voices. I don't want to even know how bad Pierce was before his voice was filtered.
I absolutely agree MM is not a traditional "musical"Submitted by
That's the point, I think. It's much more realistic, relaxed, "fun." I think more professional voices/dancing would have killed what I loved about the film...but that's a whole other conversation!
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com no votes ![]() Yeah, it might have killedSubmitted by
nordic balance (not verified) on Thu, 2008-08-07 14:48.Yeah, it might have killed what you loved about it. I understand that. I went with a group of 10 to see the film and was in a minority of 1 who didn't like it. I just felt like I was being excluded from a joke that the actors and the audience were in on throughout. I wasn't, though, looking for trained voices. Anthony Rapp, Nikki Blonsky, Adam Pascal, Idina Menzel, Zac Efron don't SOUND like they have trained voices but all have pleasant to beautiful voices. I wasn't looking for Michael Ball and Lea Salonga to sing Dancing Queen. I can listen to Hairspray, Rent and Dreamgirls(movie soundtracks) over and over but I gave the Mamma Mia soundtrack away the day after I saw the film. Why bother with it when I can listen to ABBA sing their songs much better. The night was a cute, somewhat fun throwaway experience for me. That's fine but I was hoping for more. musicalsSubmitted by
Bountiful (1280 points) (341 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-07 20:28.Usually what I look for in a musical is a sense of grandeur and larger than life drama. That's what I liked about Evita, Moulin Rouge, and Phantom of the Opera. Mamma Mia doesn't have that. It was more about ordinary people like me (if I lived on an exotic Greek island), experiencing real life issues. And these issues may not be particularly epic, but they feel that way to the characters. The songs bring a sense of fantasy and drama to a more every day situation, but you kind of have to experience it along with the characters, rather than as an outside observer. I suppose it reminds me a bit of myself when there is something significant in my life, and I automatically start thinking of which song would be best for the soundtrack if my life were a movie. I do think there are a couple of flaws. For my taste there were a couple of extra songs in there. For example, "The Winner Takes It All" interrupted the momentum. I still liked the movie overall, though. I love your new vlog!Submitted by
Joseph (6962 points) (1420 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-06 21:14.First, I just have to say that I love your new vlog; I was mum about your previous skit-oriented vlogs, but now that you've returned to just talking with each other, your give and take, your little asides, it's wonderful! Keep it up! I would definitely read an interview with the fabulous Christine Baranski (I've seen Mamma Mia! three times now, would love to see her nominated for a Supporting Actress Oscar, but doubt it will happen); but, just so you know, the real deity is The Great And Glorious Goddess Known To Mere Mortals As Kate Winslet! You know, I've never cared for the "vampires as gay metaphor" thing, either, precisely for the reasons you state; but, then, I've never cared for vampires much at all--I stopped reading Interview with a Vampire 20 pages before you did, Michael, but that was because I was bored. Out. Of. My. Mind. Anne Rice is a horrible writer--she needed an editor back then, not just later. I feel like you guys a lot of the time: the critics fall all over themselves praising unorignal, bland stuff like The Dark Knight or Million Dollar Baby or Babel (or, as I like to call it, Blabble) while dissing far more interesting and invigorating work such as Mamma Mia! or Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer. Often, I walk out of the cinema thinking, did I see the same movie the critics saw? (Of course, you and I have disagreed, too: remember C.R.A.Z.Y. and The Witnesses?--fabulous, brilliant films, but y'all didn't seem to care for them. C'est la vie!) It's called group thinkSubmitted by
HapNStance (440 points) (91 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-06 22:20.You guys are a really cute couple, but you do come off a bit like cojoined twins, which removes some of the energy from your discussions. And as for Wall-E, regardless of how you found the movie, I find it ironic that two skinny guys who make their livings criticising others for sterotyping can still summon up "Fat = Lazy." Kudos on that little insight. Nous Sommes Tous Sauvages. That's actually the point of the movie, not usSubmitted by
The movie is very clear that fat = lazy (in the context of the movie). People float around in levitating chairs sucking on Big Gulps while watching little television screens. They're too fat to actually walk.
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com no votes Christine - Yes! Vampires - No!Submitted by
BobbyBaby (466 points) (108 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-06 22:24.Forget about the vampire as gay metaphor. I agree, I have had enough of vampires as anything to last several lifetimes. Come on, Hollywood, get some new material! I, for one, would love to read a Christine Baranski interview. I first saw her in the 70's as Helena (or was it Hermia?) in A Midsummer Night's Dream in Central Park and I have loved her ever since. She makes even the most pedestrial of projects worth watching and in a good role will always steal to show. A luminous talent like Christine makes all the popular, young pop-tarts seem like dullard amateurs in comparison. Bring on the interview. I'm sure she will have much interesting and fun stuff to say.
Oh, and the Vampire metaphor...Submitted by
HapNStance (440 points) (91 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-06 22:30.in Interview with the Vampire, was for underground sex in general. Gay sex, BDSM, and even child sexuality as personified by Claudia. The book works because it actually was a metaphor, unlike most of the others which were pretty much literal (though fantasy) narratives...and also florrid over-blown pot boilers. But I have to agree, though I loved Joss Whedon's scripting in Buffy, now that the genre (vampire romance) has become a full fledged industry...it is totally played out. Nous Sommes Tous Sauvages. The Way Things Ought to BeSubmitted by
Charles (471 points) (94 posts) on Wed, 2008-08-06 23:12.Hey guys Loved your entry this week. Right off the bat I have to say to Michael, get rid of that mustache. It does not look good on you and it looks like your preparing to audition for the "Springtime for Hitler" number in The Producers. Where to begin? I am only 22 years old and I remember watching the sitcom Cybil with my grandmother before I was 10. My grandmother and I loved Christine Baranski's character and whenever I see her in a movie (The Birdcage, Chicago) I get excited to see how she'll deliver her lines. Also, Baranski is not a totally underrated actress. She was nominated for Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Comedy Series for her work in Cybill 4 times (1995-1998), winning in 1995. She was also nominated in 1999 for a guest role on Frasier. She also has two Tonys for Best Featured Actress in a Play. If you guys did an interview with Mrs. Baranski, I would read it without any hesitation. As for WALL-E, I loved this movie. I was worried because I was really excited, read a lot of hype for it, and the reviews were sensational. A lot of times when that trifecta happens I end up hating the movie. But this was one I thoroughly enjoyed. Take care and keep up the great vlogs. Baranski!Submitted by
giovannif7 (1669 points) (351 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-07 03:17.I'm with Brent, I say bring on the diva interview - to be honest, I'd be FAR more interested in a good bawdy Q&A than another Nuke/Ollian/reality show discussion (blasphemy, I know). And Michael, if you're worried about nobody checking it out, include a few good pics with shirtless guys - put in a couple of screencaps from her square dance scene with the half-naked cater-waiters from Jeffrey, and then a couple more from the "Does Your Mother Know" beach scene from Mamma Mia! - and they'll be clicking on the interview like crazy! I'd also wager there's a couple of good scenes from Cybill that would yield some interesting pictures. On a shallow note, I love a good moustache on a man, and I think yours really suits you, Michael - would that be a "clap it?" In any case, the only opinions that should count on this subject are yours and Brent's, so as long as it works for the two of you, it should stay. What AMAZING taste you have in facial hair! LOL.Submitted by
Seriously, glad you like. It feels a bit weird to put oneself on camera and then get analyzed. I know it's part of the job, but shouldn't I get access to top fashion stylists and make-up artists first? :-) Regarding Christine, let me just I'd love to do an interview with her as I think she rocks. I just suspected that you folks wouldn't be that interested given past similar articles. But I'm willing to give it a go so we just have to get her lined up! Send out the Flying Monkeys! Yes, I saw "Mama Mia," but have you heard Titiyo's latest?Submitted by
afhickman (3573 points) (740 posts) on Thu, 2008-08-07 14:59.afhickman "It takes a village (to make Village People)" I'm trotting the globe again, but I'm never too busy to PIMP FOR TITIYO. She has a new video out with Marit Bergman called "300 Slow Days in a Row." The video is, frankly, more interesting than the song, as it implies a relationship between the two women that ends with them in bed. Don't get me wrong: there's nothing remotely glamorous about any of this (it's mostly played for laughts), but it's kinda cute, and I really like the idea of Titiyo "acting" a part. Marit has been down this route before ("Adios Amigos"), but it's new territory for my girl. See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBA3Jg_cWp8 By the way...Christine Baranski was brilliant on Cybil, which may say more about her chemistry with Cybil Shepherd than anything else, because she seemed totally out of place in "Mama Mia." Of course, it didn't help that, like too many of the songs, her solo came from completely out of left field and did nothing either to advance the story or to showcase her talents. It was Julie Walters who stole the show, IMHO, along with the incredible, edible Dominic Cooper. Bring on the Christine Baranski interview!Submitted by
Eire (5 points) (1 post) on Thu, 2008-08-07 21:11.I too feel that Christine Baranski is criminally underappreciated, and I am 27. I will be driving the 1000+kms it will take to get from the Canadian Shield to NYC to see Christine in Boeing Boeing next month, and I am very excited about it. An interview here with her would be a lot of fun. It's interesting to read the Mamma Mia reviews about her scene; some think it's not that great, but I've looked at several that believe her song was the best part of the movie, or at least the most organized. I love Julie Walters and Meryl Streep too, but their numbers were relatively disjointed, and I don't think Julie Walters shimmying on a table or crawling along a roof ridge can really compare to Christine's choreography in Does Your Mother Know. It's pretty obvious who has voice and dance training in Mamma Mia and who does not (the audience I was in for MM broke into nervous laughter when Pierce Brosnan started singing SOS). If anyone doubts Christine Baranski's musical theatre abilities, they need look no further than reviews of her portrayal as Mrs. Lovett in the 2002 Kennedy Center production of Sweeney Todd; a non-commercial cast recording is also floating around online. I also really enjoyed her Mary Sunshine character in the film version of Chicago, which is usually played by a counter tenor in drag on stage. I read that although she was asked to play the character as a female, she secretly made her gay regardless. Anyway, all this to say: bring on the Baranski! Eire 'True Blood': Just Another Form of Gay-BashingSubmitted by
David E is a Fraud! (315 points) (162 posts) on Sat, 2008-08-09 14:45.Although I enjoy the homoerotic metaphors in Ann Rice's books, I think there is a big difference between metaphor and direct analogy - like with David Ball's 'True Blood'. To make a direct analogy between the gay civil rights movement and the civil rights of a negatively-connoted group of fictitious characters that drink blood and have been known as a cause of death to humans is completely offensive to me. I find it to be another form of gay-bashing and I can hardly wait (not) for the general public to start referring to the GLBT community as "vampires"... -Sibelius "It's curtains for you, Dr. Horrible. Lacy, wafting curtains..." Interviews with Women Over 40Submitted by
gabriel oak (461 points) (105 posts) on Mon, 2008-08-11 17:22.Sorry you didn't receive any response to your interview with Susan Sarandon but I welcome interviews with Christine Baranski and other mature actresses (and actors) as long as they're talented. So please don't ignore them. I like reading about artists of all ages! I'm over 40 but I am interested in artists younger and older as long as they have something valuable to say. I was disappointed about halfway through WALL-E as well. I think the movie lost focus when the robots went into space and I thought the human characters were boring. I did find it interesting, though, that songs from a bad movie musical like Hello, Dolly! became WALL-E's obsession. (I liked Hello, Dolly! on stage but the movie version is overproduced.) The vampire thing is getting lame but I was beginning to get interested in Moonlight mainly because of the lead actor but then CBS killed the show. I see no reason to watch another vampire show on HBO, which I would have to renew my subscription for. |
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The lovely Christine
Anne Rice did it best
Anne Rice really covered this topic completely. But she also kind of set off this whole trend. Her transformation of vampires from campy evil monsters to real people built a whole modern genre.
She also started the vampire = gay thing with Interview with the Vampire because it was pretty clear that there was an intentional gay undercurrent to Lestat and Louis's relationship. Or as one of my friends put it: "Guy vampire makes a little girl vampire to keep his boyfriend from leaving him". I personally like Queen of the Damned best of all, with the first half covering the points of view of many characters. The later books were more musings on topics that interested Rice explored using her characters.
But the problem was that having successfully transformed vampires into mainstream anti-heroes Rice has left us with a cultural obsession with vampires. Honestly, how many gay vampire novels are there? It seems like everytime I browse through the sci-fi/fantasy section of a gay bookstore 3/4 of the books are vampire-related.
If other people are seeing vampires as a gay metaphor it's only because we appear to do so as well. But I think a lot of gay guys are enchanted by the notion of being beautiful and eternally young, going out at night looking for sensual "feeding" to satisfy their physical needs.
Hence we have piles of bad vampire porn. Worse, hence we have others getting into is as well. How many vampire books has Tanya Huff sold after all? Plus wasn't it translated into a Lifetime series? Even the lesbians are in on the conspiracy!
wrong on history of gay vamps.
Actually, Anne Rice did not start the homoeroticism in vampire literature. Certainly Le Fanu's Carmilla is a work of a gay vampire (well, lesbian if you wish to nitpick). And George Sylvester Viereck's infamous The House of the Vampire released in 1907 and featured a very gay male vampire.
And while there are a great many queer-themed vampire novels, the vast majority of gay spec fic releasing these days doesn't have anything to do with bite. I recommend One for Sorrow, Space Boy Blues, Swordspoint as terrific examples.
Steve
I didn't say she invented the idea
I said she started the trend we have today. This is the same with how neither Gene Roddenberry nor George Lucas invented science fiction, but credit for a lot of it's modern mass-market appeal can be laid at their feet.
How many people today do you suppose even know Carmilla or The House of the Vampire? Probably more people watched the tacky TV series Forever Knight.
However, Rice made substantial changes to the genre by promoting the vampire as a hero/anti-hero rather than as something otherworldly. Rice's vampires were very much human beings whose vampirism was a condition setting them apart, rather than inhuman beings passing in the human world.
The success of Rice's books had enormous subsequent influence on the vampire mythos because it made previous tendencies to depict vampires as either succubi/incubi, or else fiends, seem dated. The modern post-Rice vampire became a human superhero almost. Further, Rice's general depiction of vampires as not being any more or less inherently evil than human beings made them easier to relate so.
The deluge of such humanistic vampires that we have seen since the 80's is at least partly attributable to the success of Rice's novel, beginning with Interview in the 70's. This has progressed to the point where it is almost a case that the idea of using vampires as monsters is now the fringe concept (as is the case with I Am Legend, which was written in the 50's anyway).
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (the TV series) mixed both monster vampires and romantic hero and anti-hero vampires (Angel & Spike). The enormously popular Twilight series also picks up the notion of vampires as romantic outsider.
Again, most of this can be traced back to Rice whose popular books promoted the vampire hero concept, and triggered the deluge of such into current media marketplace.
Well, in the writing
Well, in the writing community, I think they would look at you oddly if you didn't know who Carmilla was at least.
We're Talking Mass Market Here
I was originally responding to Brent and Michael and their (not at all unreasonable) complaint about over-saturation of vampires in in current mass-market media. We weren't really discussing the treatment of vampires as seen from the comparatively small group of people who are familiar with the historical roots of the genre.
There has been a literal explosion of vampire-centric writing, television and movies since Rice introduced a paradigm shift with Interview with the Vampire and expanded it with The Vampire Lestat and The Queen of the Damned. As I said before, this was to a large extent driven by the reimagining of vampires as more "human" and thus easier for audiences to relate to as primary characters, and even see as something attractive to be.
Spaceboy Blues?
Well, now I'm curious---what is "Space Boy Blues"? I was able to find information on the other two books on Amazon, but I could not find a reference anywhere to the third title.
(PS.... How's the writing going?)
I'm like a superhero, with no powers or motivation...
Oops. Mea culpa. The book
Oops. Mea culpa. The book is Spaceman Blues: A Love Song. I wish more Amazon titles used the tag queer speculative fiction.
The writing is going... slow and steady. My next collection of short stories (no vamps, though there are Mexican goatsuckers referenced) releases at the end of the month.
Bring on Baranski!
I would read a Christine Baranski interview, profile, article, whatever. I've loved Christine ever since I saw her on Broadway in Neil Simon's play "Rumors" back in the '80s. And she was great in "Mame" at the Kennedy Center last year. And I agree totally about "Mamma Mia!" - who are these haters?
(I read and loved the Susan Sarandon interview, BTW - maybe we need AfterElton Silver for us fogies who like the older stars!)
Coffee much....?
Michael and Brent...you seemed quite hyper on this one...I chuckled along with you for most of it.
I totally agree with you, Brent, about Anne Rice novels. I did comment on this on another thread. Some of her novels have descended to the depths of horrid. But I did love a couple of her non-supernatural books namely "The Feast of All Saints" and "Cry to Heaven" both of which were gay inclusive.
Christine Baranski's portrayal of Maryanne (Sybill) made being a lush like that the coolest thing. Her best line-- as she groggily wakes up, looks around and exclaims "oh, thank god...I'm indoors". I have *so* been there. :)
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
Hyper is who I am
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com no votes
Hyper is as hyper does