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Help us make some TV suggestions for Darren Hayes
As someone who watches a lot of gay TV, I had to empathize a little when Darren Hayes complained about the the way the media has depicted gay men, saying that "You're either Graham Norton or George Michael getting arrested in parks" and that shows like Will & Grace demonstrated an idea "that basically there are two types of gay men: The slut, or there's the straight acting guy." Hayes is right in a lot of ways. Gay visibility has improved quite a bit, but we still face those limiting stereotypes in spades. It's not hard to find a gay man whose only purpose is to make snappy remarks and help straight people figure out their problems (I'm guessing that's what Hayes' reference to Graham Norton is about, unless there's a slutty or straight-acting side to Norton that hasn't made it stateside). Gay characters defined by their sexuality or their lack of effeminacy (the stereotype of not being stereotypical) are also pretty easy to come by. Still, the plus side of watching so much of what TV does with gay characters is that I get to see some great work along with the tired stereotypes. And amid those stereotypes, there are characters who deserve a second look. They may seem to fit one stereotype at first, but television characters often get the chance to grow and become more than their first impression. With that in mind, here are a few characters Hayes might want to consider further, with your chance to weigh in. Ian Gallagher I can't deny that Shameless' Ian has quite the sexual history, which includes the time his discovery of restroom cruising ended up getting his family out of trouble. However, when you consider other Chatsworth Estate residents like Karen Jackson (who seduced her weak-willed stepfather, Frank) and "Lip" Gallagher, Ian's sexuality becomes just a small part of a pretty scandalous town and his loyalty to his family becomes his defining trait.
Brian & Steve If Hayes is looking for gay characters whose sexuality isn't treated like a defining characteristic, but isn't forgotten, I'd recommend checking out Sarah Silverman's pals and neighbors from The Sarah Silverman Show. Brian and Steve are nerds who share Sarah's love of gross-out humor, first and foremost, They also act like an old married couple with inside jokes and a worn-in camaraderie.
Marc St. James Ugly Betty's Marc might have initially come off as a catty fashionista serving a more prominent straight character, but when the show gives him a story he gets to show someone deeper than a source of vicious (and hilarious) one-liners. While the last season worked on showing Marc's professional side, letting us see the potential for him to become more than just Willi's lackey, Marc's most interesting moments came with his relationship to Cliff a bear-ish photographer who challenged Marc's idea of dating material.
Captain Jack Harkness Science fiction -- even science fiction meant for a mature audience -- tends to feel pretty awkward about sexuality in general. Unsurprisingly, the genre is even more awkward around gay men, so it's especially impressive that a major franchise like Doctor Who would introduce a queer character who is never desexualized and also gets to be a major action hero/antihero. There's a fine balancing act to Jack, his omnisexuality could come off as a bad joke about gays being hypersexual but when you put his qualities together, there's no character like him.
Submitted by on Thu, 2009-07-23 12:34. |
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I don't know who Darren Hayes is
But if he doesn't like what is on television, he should turn it off and go read a good book.
"Open up your mind and then open up your heart. And you will see that you and me aren't very far apart." - Blessid Union of Souls
He is a singer
and he had a couple of big hits in the USA when he was member of Savage Garden.
And about his comments, he is almost right. He is right about the slut that Jack was, but i'm not so sure about Will being so straight acting
Thanks, I know Savage Garden
Never knew their names...
I was being snarky with my "go read a good book" comment.
I agree with what Paul and Liz stated below. With the additional comment of yes, Jack was an extreme stereotype, but who hasn't known a Jack? I've known at least 2 or 3 Jack's in my life. Stereotype or not, they exist.
"Open up your mind and then open up your heart. And you will see that you and me aren't very far apart." - Blessid Union of Souls
Maxxie...maybe
On Will & Grace...
I have to say (and I think I might be in the minority here), but I'm not sure I agree with the hating on Will & Grace part of the comment. I understand where it's coming from...there is no doubt that Jack, at the very least, was a clown and a stereotype. But were Will and Jack any more stereotypical than, say, Phoebe and Joey on Friends? I don't think so. Now, are those characters harming the perception of spacey blondes and Italian meatheads? No, because those groups aren't oppressed in the way homosexuals are. But it's a valid parallel in saying that sit-coms often have characters that aren't necessarily supposed to be representative of reality.
Besides that, I think that it's important to remember that Will & Grace premiered in 1998. It's a product of it's time, and I think that it deserves it's due as a program that put gay people out there, and was ground-breaking. Maybe I have such a soft spot for it because it premiered right as I came out, and I distinctly remember how fascinated I was by portrayals of actual gay men on television, however over the top they might be. And I can remember that my mom and dad would make sure to watch it every Thursday and then talk to me about it the next day, like it was a way to make sure that I knew that they thought gay people were great. None of us thought that it was realistic, we just thought it was funny. And it was a way to talk about something that maybe I wasn't ready to face head on at that point, and it helped me to understand that my parents would be there whenever I did want to talk.
I'm not saying that it was a perfect show, there's no denying that the quality dropped way down after the first few seasons. But I think that dismissing it as nothing but a perpetuation of a negative stereotype is kind of unfair.
And come on, can anyone REALLY claim that they didn't ever laugh at Megan Mullally :-)?
www.wdwsmmaos.blogspot.com
The Issue with Will & Grace
I think that the issue with Will & Grace was that they never really developed any kind of real gay life for Will.
Jack was obviously a comedic character taken to extreme. He was everything in the gay stereotype with the dials turned all the way up. But Will was always depicted in a rather problematic fashion.
They managed to get through a rather lengthy number of seasons with Will not having much of a life beyond Grace, who in contrast had numerous relationships going on. Indeed, it was never clear what sort of life Will had outside of work and Grace, which I think is what Darren is probably complaining about.
Strip off the active references to Will being gay and the occasional boyfriend lasting an episode or two and for most of the series Will really could have been straight and been Grace's husband. Indeed, in a kind of reversal of the slashfic fantasy, it almost seemed tantalizingly possible to some audiences that Will might someday "change" and realize that he and Grace were meant to be together as a couple. It wasn't until the very end of the show's run that Will had a relationship that went anywhere and even that was iffy at best right up until the very end.
So in a way Will was a "straight" gay character. His sexuality served more as an explanation for why he and Grace didn't get married by the end of season one more than as a developed trait in itself. Otherwise Will's gay life was either off-camera, shown in brief snippets or else entirely linked to Jack and his antics.
In a very real way, despite being one of the named leads, he was the most marginalized character on the show. Because he was the "serious" gay, as opposed to the minstrel that was Jack, they never really found their footing with how to use Will.
It's very easy to think nostalgically now, but I remember years of angry complaining over why Will never seemed to have a boyfriend or any kind of social life back when the show was still on. This is not to say that the show wasn't funny. But it could leave one feeling dissatisfied.
Mind you, I still feel this way about Kevin and Scotty on Brothers & Sisters, who I also feel have been treated as second-class. Kevin is actually a dramatic version of the comedic Will. They're both lawyers, uptight but with sardonic senses of humor. Both are utterly enslaved to the women in their lives (Will to Grace, Kevin to his mother and sisters). Both have ended up in relationships that are only marginally depicted onscreen as compared to the heterosexual relationships on their shows.
I do see where Darren is coming from, although I think that too much is being made of his specific choice of words rather than reading what he was actually trying to say.
I watch will and grace
Don't feel bad about thinking Will was straight
I seem to recall reading somewhere that early test audiences for the first season of Will & Grace often thought that Will was straight too. So did a lot of first time viewers who tuned into later seasons without know what was going on at first.
The story goes that the show's creators were advised to create a romantic comedy wherein there was no possibility of the romance ever being consumated. Thus Will's homosexuality was introduced as a plot device to explain why a man and woman seemingly so perfectly matched would not just become a couple. Jack and Karen were, originally, secondary characters meant as sidekicks to the two leads, but who grew to become major characters in their own right.
Since the series was so focused on Will's relationship with a straight woman, Grace, it was possible for writers to keep most of his homosexuality limited to dialogue rather than showing it onscreen. This was really even true of Jack as well. Although much was made of his promiscuity we never actually saw him really do anything.
But a lot of the jokes were very context-dependent (indeed, very New York oriented) and to someone who lives in another country and speaks another language it would be very easy for a lot of that context to get lost.
ummm
WHAT?
so...if you're a gay man and sleep around, you're a 'slut' but if you dont sleep around and are...just a gay man living his life like ANYONE ELSE...you're a straight acting gay...and that must be a....bad thing?
i really HATE the term 'straight acting' - - Darren hayes must think every gay man out there is well....a stereotype or something then.
there are blondes who are dumb, and there are blondes who are smart. there are gay men who are very outgoing and super loud and blah blah, and then there are those who aren't. there are people in kansas who are probably ignorant as hell, and there will be others that aren't
point? point is....PEOPLE ARE WHO THEY ARE. ok, we get 'slutty' jack....we also get a character like kevin walker who isn't so slutty...who has found a husband and is....well, just living his life, i guess.
I'm not some "butch" lesbian...but damn, i guess i am a...straight acting lesbian since i don't fit the preconceived notion of....a lesbian. WTF
people on tv, i think, represent numbers of people in real life. you have this person who acts like XYZ group of people and you'll have another who acts like ABC group of people
I think tv, in this day and age, is trying to spread gay men out with some stereotypes and without.
I don't know. maybe i am completely misunderstanding Darren's criticism. I sort of want to know what he wants? if he doesn't want "straight acting" or "slutty"...what does he want? a gay man inside a bubble?
Pretty much agree
I, too, kind of dislike this idea that there are flamboyant gay men and straight acting gay men.... Or butch lesbions and 'lipstick' lesbions... or ghetto black and white-washed black.
If you don't like 'straight acting gays' or 'slutty (which I just imagine to be flamboyant)' gays then what exactly exists? A gay man who doesn't have a lisp or gestures aggressively but who constantly talks about being gay just to keep the audience, or people in his life, informed of his sexuality. That seems to be the only way out.
TV is often too lazy when it comes to writing in most aspects, and, like finding any good television, you have to search hard to find well-developed characters-- gay or straight.
People are pointing to Will and Grace ... Will was every bit as developed as Grace was. We got his family just like hers... we had relationship talks... we had the jokes. And the writers NEVER let us forget the fact that Will was gay... since 90% of the jokes were gay-related. The only real difference is that they never showed Will's relationships as frequently or in any real physicality (which was a problem of the time)
And I'm not even crazy about the show.. it was funny, sure.. but it's like looking to Married with Children to get insight into the lives of a married couple.
And I think looking at Six Feet Under is the perfect start to finding well-rounded, interesting and entertaining characters, gay or straight.
when he says "straight acting"
Mickey on Shameless
Will & Grace
Haven't we moved on from this idea that a gay man in film or television has to be representative of us all?
Yes it's true as stated above that there still isn't that that representation of gay men on TV, but isn't it better to represent different types of gay men than try to have some universal icon figure?
There are "straight acting" gay men like Will who have trouble with relationships and have a straight woman best friend (or any combination of those ingredients), and queeny or effeminant men who sleep around (does that really make you a slut?) like Jack. And there are lots of other types of gay men too represented elsewhere, just as there are so many different types of straight people represented in lots of different ways.
Darren Hayes himself is representative of yet another type of gay man, but I don't need to see him as representative of me.
You missed a good one...
in Omar from The Wire.
Omar!
I really have nothing to say, but The Wire was brilliant (maybe not the last season) and Omar a fascinating character.
/end of embarrassing fangirly moment
yeah...
I like Robin from The
I like Robin from The Smoking Room.
YES!
Hmmm, let's see....
How about Jack MacFarland's assistant, "Evelyn" -- wait, nope, inoffensive straight lackey.
How about 'Bosom Buddies'? -- wait, nope: slut straight guys dressed as women.
Okay, how about '30 Something'--oh, geez. Gay-Acting Straight guys
Well, then, how about... mmm, how about "24"...crap, overly straight-acting straight guy.
Well, I'm just plain out of ideas.
Yeah
Darren needs wider circle of friends
It is wonderful if he is a total queen, but Darren needs to hang out with masculine gay men, then he'd realize masculine gay men are not "straight acting", a self-loathing term if ever there was one - they are masculine by nature.
IMHO, the only thing incredible about Will & Grace is the notion that anybody really bought into the idea that a handsome, down-to-earth lawyer can't get laid easily in New York or find a husband in less than nine years of searching NYC. :P