Author Orson Scott Card has a well-documented history as a vicious homophobe (the man believes anti-gay laws should be kept on the books to use against us if we act up) and a game based on one his works is currently the target of a boycott.
Card now has company in the thankfully relatively empty Hall of Homophobic Sci Fi writers in the form of John C. Wright, author of The Golden Age and a Nebula Award nominee.
Upon reading the SyFy Channel's promise to be more gay-inclusive after receiving a failing grade from GLAAD, Wright penned a Livejournal entry titled More Perversity and Diversity in the Future! in which he ranted about gay people, saying such things as:
I am hoping, of course, that future shows
will also portray sadomasochism and bondage in a positive light -- we
are all looking forward to FLASH GORDON'S TRIP TO GOR, I hope. Love
affairs with corpses, small children, and farm animals will also be on
display in a natural nonchalant fashion in the new raft of progressive
shows, titles such as I DREAM OF STINKY, PEDERASTY JUNCTION, and OLD
MACDONALD HAD A SHEEP -- but no Mormons, whose moral standing we all
abhor.
Why
are you willing to tolerate sexual perversion but not racism? In a
world with no standards, what makes a malfunction of love higher on
your standard than a malfunction of hate? Is an irrational lust and
longing to mimic the mating act with a sex with which one cannot mate,
at its root, any more or less disconnected to reality than an
irrational fear and hatred of a Negro? How do we know race-hate is not
genetic? Look at how scorned and put-upon racists are! Can we spare
them no cheap Leftist pity? Why don't we simply call racism an
alternate anti-ethnic orientation, similar to hetero-toleration, but
different?
In
other news, Timothy Leary will be giving Sci-Fi an "F" grade for
failing to portray drug abuse positively. Castro and Pol Pot will be
giving Sci-Fi an "F" grade for their show BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, which
portrays the mass slaughter of innocent human beings in a negative
light. Dean Martin will be giving Sci-Fi an "F" for failing to portray
drunkenness as life-affirming. Don Juan will be giving Sci-Fi an "F"
grade for failing to have a show that portrays serial adultery in a
positive light -- but Don gives BATTLESTAR GALACTICA an "A" for
sleeping with robots. Uncle Screwtape reminds me the any form of sex
that is sterile and selfish wins the approval of the Lowerarchy.
It's nothing we haven't heard before, but it's ugly to read nonetheless. (As for Wright's actual writing, here's hoping his books aren't as obvious, tired, and overwrought.)
After getting roundly criticized, Wright pulled down the post, but not before someone had already copied it. Wright did later follow up with another post where he "apologizes" for some of the nasty things he said about us 'mos and mocks those who think it's his religion that makes him an unmitigated bigot.
Because it's totally not the Catholic Church that made him a bigot. It turns out he was a bigot long before he became religious! Besides, the Catholic Church is so not bigoted against gay people and he quotes Church catechism (basically "love the sinner, hate the sin") to prove it.
As for his actual apology, Wright quotes the Church's flowery words about treating us with respect including no marriage, no sex, no children, etc, and then says:
This language is certainly more temperate than when I called them perverts. I was wrong to use such hurtful words: I freely admit this in public and humbly beg for your pardon and forgiveness, but if I were not a Christian, nothing could have planted the seed of doubt or self-doubt in my iron heart, and not even a team of wild horses could have dragged that admission from my stubborn teeth. Someday Christianity may make me fit company for human beings, my brothers, and you are vastly deceived if you think this religion is making me more irrational, rather than less.
Newsflash, Mr. Wright: Most of us don't care why or when you became a bigot, and the Catholic Church is one of the most horribly bigoted institutions in the world no matter how you try to spin it.
As for Christianity making you "fit company", clearly that won't be the case as all Christianity has taught you thus far is to dress up your hatred, ignorance and bigotry in prettified language that is no less hurtful than the garbage you spew. Trust me, most of us saw through the Catholic Church a long time ago.
You'd think after having lived this long, I'd longer be surprised that people "smart" enough to write books, could be this staggeringly ignorant, but you'd be wrong!
BTW, if you missed the BEST.GAY.WEEK.EVER! you missed your chance to vote Mr. Wright Asshat of the Week, an honor he richly deserves.
Sterile and selfish sex
Funny words from closet case
Self-important bore
Ugh...once I read this I knew the rest wasn't worth my time.
"It's hard to be 'straight-acting' when you're kissing other boys."
I was apopletic...
when I found out about John C. Wright's homophobia. Unfortunately, I've actually bought a book by him - because it was based on the work of golden age sci-fi author A.E. Van Vogt.
I don't remember how I found out about his comments - but when I went to that webpage I was pissed at how many commenters were agreeing with him.
There's a lot more homophobia out there than we care to know.
!!!!!
I CAN'T EVEN SAY WHAT I WANT TO BECAUSE THIS IS A FAMILY SITE but
Would people please stop making these f---ing comparisons? Stop telling yourselves that gay is just a "mindset" and maybe you'll get it. I have to wonder if when people like him say stuff like this, there's a part of him that knows its all bull. Like, a noticeable part of them. But they say it anyway, because they have a prejudice against LGBTs and want to have some grounds for it. Its rationalization for irrational behavior towards a group of people that, as far as I can tell, are not threating people like Mr. Wright at all. I'm voting for him as Asshat, yeah. I hope he gets it.
(I will add a slight nod in his direction for trying to apologize. As hollow as it seemed. That's more than many of our haters do.)
"To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible." - Calvin of Calvin and Hobbes
Orscon Scott Card was
I can not believe the hatred
I can not believe the hatred some people have. It breaks my heart to know that another human being can be so callous, ignorant, hateful and prejudiced. I have a lot of faith in humanity, but people like this make me question it.
One thing though, and I might get shot for this, but I don't hate the Catholic "love the sinner, hate the sin" policy. I do think the church is hypocritical, and I do wish they would change their views on homosexuality, but I think it is important to recognize that if someone truly does believe homosexuality is a sin, it is a big step for them to not hate someone who is homosexual. What I always try and tell Christians who are against homosexuality is that even if it is a sin, it is not our place to judge. Hey, I can love them, and still hate their beliefs. Also, please remember that not all churches feel that way. My church accepts people of all sexual orientations, allows LGBT persons to be ministers and will sanction gay marriages.
But that being said, his "apology" fails at life, and the man seriously needs to do something better with his time than being hateful. (maybe write a book?)
You too can be saved by the blog! www.savedbytheblog14.blogspot.com
I may be straight, but I'm not narrow.
Ender's Game
I read Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card, in the seventh grade. It immediately rose to the top of my favorite books list, and I have read it twice since then. Recently I found out that Card was extremely homophobic and I didn't know what to think. I'd always considered Ender's Game to be a masterpiece, but upon this new knowledge about it's author I became conflicted. Can the bigotry of an author detract from the quality of his writing? Ultimately, I decided no. Ender's Game is still a masterpiece to me and is still in my top 5 favorite books. However, I will never by a book by Card again.
Are my ethics flawed?
No
Sometimes a person's talent can transcend their bigotry and ignorance. There are plenty of talented people out there who are jerks.
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I may be straight, but I'm not narrow.
Card loves naked little boys
For a homophobe, he sure loves to write about little boys naked.
Seriously, go through Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow and highlight every time Card starts writing about pubescent boys naked. You'll end up with a list of passages in the hundreds.
I just think
that institutions aren't good or bad -- they're inanimate. it's the people in control that bend an institution to either good or bad. they can evolve - or devolve - with a flick of a pen.
but comparing homosexuality to genocide, racism, and (of course) bestiality? i have trouble believing he's actually capable of writing the "science" half of "science fiction" with such a low IQ.
how sad...and stupid
anyone who fails to recognize the appeal of sci-fi to gays, with the concept of alternate realities and universes where gayness is not only accepted, but glorified, is not only beneath contempt, but has no idea of what a loyal market we are...
unlike a lot of srtaight sci-fi fans i have known, we don't lose interest in the genre once we actually lose our virginity...
Yes and Robert A. Heinlein too
Well I was one of those
When it comes to religion, yes we should give it up --
when it wants us to give ourselves up.
I was raised as a Catholic but "lost my faith" (ie. pulled the wool away from my eyes) at confirmation. I knew what those priests were up to -- and it wasn't pretty.
What can one say of a religion that at heart is little more than the world's largest, wealthiest and most thoroughly lawyered pedophile cult?
It's like musical that died in Boston: Great sets. Fabulous costumes. The score is gorgeous.
The Book needs work.
There's a place for recovering Catholics
It's called the Episcopal Church. Even our local priest is a former Catholic (and is gay).
While my religious beliefs keep me within Christianity I can't endure some of the bile that comes out of some denominations, especially the RCC. Even so, a lot of Catholics don't agree with the Church despite their authoritarian claims. Modern lay Catholics have learned not to take the clergy completely seriously. My extended family is all Catholic and most of them are pro-gay rights for example.
ELCA
And don't forget all recovering Catholics are welcome in the Lutheran church (or at least, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America branch of said church---there are several different sects of US Lutherans). As of last week, the ELCA is now officially gay-friendly. Yep, a gay couple can be married in the Lutheran church, and gay men and women can be pastors.
This is actually a pretty big deal, as the Lutherans are by far the largest US Protestant denomination to strip away anti-gay trappings from the church. But unfortunately, the Lutherans are still a minority in the overall religious make-up of the US. The Catholics and the Baptists far outnumber all other religious groups in this country, and both of those churches are virulently anti-gay. Sigh...
I'm like a superhero, with no powers or motivation...
Lifeblood of Episcopal Church
The same thing is said of the UUA.
We'll have to disagree on what "respect and dignity" means
as telling gay people they are loved but "disordered", that they can't marry, can't adopt, and then fighting all laws to protect them because that is a slippery slope is about as far from "respect and dignity" as you can get.
Sure, Catholic priests don't call gay people names, but they then use their influence to get legislation blocked and/or passed that discriminates against people. Sorry, but I'll take the bully on the street who is honest about his hate rather than the disingenuous institution working to deprive of my rights.
As for the church "only" being 20% bigoted, too bad that 20% has helped caused the deaths of millions of people from HIV/AIDS by working against birth control and condom use around the world or kept hundreds of thousands of gay people from the benefits and protections of marriage that straight Catholics enjoy every day and who knows how many kids stuck in foster care and orphanages rather than being adopted by gay people.
And it's not as if the Catholics are the only folks out there doing charity work (often done by the way simply to recruit more Catholics)but without the homophobic and sexist bigotry.
"Respect and dignity", part 2
I totally see where you're coming from, and understand all the negativity attached to the Catholic church (and, of course, most churches) when it comes to homosexuality. However, I think your analysis is too simplistic. Most importantly, the Catholic church is anything but monolithic. Yes, there is a heirarchy (very unfortunate in my view), and the official line of what people are to believe. But under that official umbrella dwell large numbers of people, like Ted Kennedy, who support full equality for gay people. On all issues, from abortion, to the Iraq war, to health care, there are Catholics with wide ranges of views. Catholicism spawned the liberation theology in South America just as it did the movement against birth control and sex education; it spawned the Berrigan brothers of the 60s just as it did the holocaust denier priests. This diversity and vitality should at least be acknowledged and understood.
Secondly, the Catholic church, like any institution, evolves over time. That's inevitable, and will continue. Society as a whole, and especially American society, has seen a seismic evolution over the past few years as it regards gay people. Catholics aren't immune to that evolution, as are no other religions, even Mormons. As Catholics know more and more friends and family who are openly gay, as the social discourse about the subject expands and continues, they will be swayed more and more to our side. This evolution and potential should at least be acknowledged and understood.
(As an aside, I don't understand why we always think these changes should be instant, or that the gay issue should be an immediate either/or thing for people working to change and grow. That's just ignorance or lack of understanding on our side. Ask any psychologist about how the concept of sexuality impacts the human psyche. It's a murky and mysterious thing, generating feelings and reactions that aren't always logical or expected. Until recently, the subject of homosexuality was essentially hidden away from view, and therefore not talked or thought much about. People lived their lives in ignorance. And then all of a sudden it burst on the scene. For adults raised in a different time, with religious beliefs inculcated since childhood, it's not an automatic thing to just suddenly turn about and instantly have new, opposite opinions about this subject. It's going to be an evolutionary process, and I think we're better off if we acknowledge that.)Also, I think you have misinterpreted what Jay said about "respect and dignity". He was referring specifically to how priests in his experience treat individual gay people, not about how the church as a whole interprets and teaches gay issues. Those are simply too different things. Jay believes what he believes, and that puts him in the Catholic tradition. It means something to him that the priests he knows treat him in the way that they do, and that does count for something.
For what it's worth, I'm not Catholic, and I think that the official Catholic explanation of "how things are" is way off base. I'm what I call a "universalist", meaning that I think all the world's religions are different ways of expressing the same reality, interpreted differently. So I have no personal stake in defending Catholics. I just want us as gay people to have a more rounded, more expansive and therefore, in my opinion, a more accurate perception of religion. Religion has been the source of both great harm throughout history, but also great good, on both a societal and personal level. It's unfortunate if we only see the first but not the second. Just as it's unfortunate if we see only the pedophile priests and not the vast numbers who live lives of fidelity to their faith and ministrations to their fellow citizens. And it's shortsighted to not recognize that we're far better off if we work with religious people, and help them expand and enlighten their views, as opposed to simply yelling at them and chastising them.
I was thinking of that today as I watched Ted Kennedy's funeral. What a great man, and what a great supporter of gay rights, and much of what made him what he was came from his Catholic faith. Personally, it's my choice to focus on the best sides of religion, oppose the negative sides and the overtly bigoted sides, and have confidence, and yes, faith, that eventually the majority of religion will be on our side.Kennedy
I was thinking of that today as I watched Ted Kennedy's funeral. What a great man, and what a great supporter of gay rights, and much of what made him what he was came from his Catholic faith.
Wherever it came from, much of it put him in conflict with that faith. They really didn't like him in the Vatican:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/28/vatican-official-here-in_n_271603.html
While many individual Catholics are good and decent people, the more I read about the Church itself the deeper my contempt and disgust for it has become. The paedophilia apparently endemic among the priesthood in all too many countries and the Church's cover-up attempts have been well covered but there's plenty of other stuff to be appalled by like, for instance, the part it played in helping Nazi war-criminals escape justice after WWII - google 'Ratlines' if you're unfamiliar with this. And I've always been puzzled as to why a monster like Bishop Hudal was left in place until the early 1950s when he'd allegedly fallen out with the Vatican in 1938. Between those dates, using the resources of the Church, was when he did all his damage.
But that's kinda the point
And some people think royalty is dead in the modern era? It's not. Real-life monarchy lives on in the Catholic Church. And that, frankly, is why it's so impossibly f**ked up. I wish the Church DID evolve as you say. But I honestly don't see it happening, at least in the areas of sexuality and gender.Check out my new fantasy website: TheTorchOnline.com. It's like AfterElton.com for fantasy geeks! And I Twitter
Catholic Church
I couldn't agree more with what you say. I said the same thing myself with my comments about the unfortunate heirarchy and the official line telling people what to believe. I didn't stress it because that wasn't the point I was trying to make, but the worst aspect of any religion is the "official line" they try to insist everyone adhere to. I talk to so many people from so many different faiths and varieties of faith, and they almost invariably see their church's interpretation of things as obviously the correct one, and in all respects. That's mind boggling. I try to point out that there are literally hundreds of variations of "how things are" preached by different religions, and each thinks it has all the right answers about everything . No one ever seems to see the obvious: if hundreds of faiths and sects seek in good conscience to find the truth, and come to a huge number of different conclusions (even those using the same guide book!!!), then what are the odds that the one you are following possesses the truth about everything? It's a testament to the mind numbing, stultifying effects of religion that almost no one ever grasps that. In fact, I can't think of a single person to whom I've made that argument who could really accept that.
But I'm digressing from my main point, which is that the objection you raise doesn't really go to the point I was making. The main thing I was saying is that the obvious shortcomings shouldn't obscure the other side, the good side, the side that people like Jay see and experience. Put somewhat differently, the "Catholic church" is not merely the Vatican, as much as it seeks to regulate everything under its umbrella. It is also the followers who choose to see things differently, especially in America, where Ted Kennedy and John Kerry can hold opinions about homosexuality, abortion, birth control, etc., that are in direct conflict with the Vatican. America has millions of such Catholics, and they are part of the Catholic church, molded by it in important ways, yet trying to modernize and humanize it. It is also the parish priests who may feel allegiance to the Vatican, at least on the surface, but who do great work in the lives of their parishioners in multiple ways. It is also the people, like Mother Teresa, who do overtly great work in the poorest, most needy parts of the world. It is also the liberation priests of Latin and South America, working for the betterment of society and their fellow man through political activism, and in some cases the literal overthrow of exploitative regimes.
Regarding evolution, I was speaking partly of the evolution of the church among the people themselves, especially in America, where significant changes have evolved. And I was speaking partly about the heirarchy itself. Yes, the appointment of this pope was a huge disappointment, but, even though it's not currently apparent, the Vatican itself is not immune to societal changes and evolution. Hence, the various Vatican councils and modernizations through the years. The current pope is quite old, and who knows what the next pope will bring?
Again, I've never been a Catholic, and agree with little of the belief system, and find abhorrent the many transgressions the church has committed through the centuries. But the story is far more complex than what you are making it out to be, and basic fairness, especially to our gay Catholic brothers, mandates that we see the whole picture.
My Point...
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Regressive
I certainly can't argue the point about the Catholic church being intensely regressive regarding sexual matters. Though, to be depressing, it's not as regressive as many evangelical churches in the U.S., and the evangelicals extend the regression into most other areas as well, leaving the Vatican looking downright liberal in some respects. And you may be right about the prospect for future popes, though all it takes is a pope analagous to Earl Warren or Stephen Breyer. So let's assume that the Vatican remains as it is indefinitely. It's still important that we see the entire picture, as I described in my earlier post. especially the changing nature of Catholicism in the U.S.
The reason people won't leave the church "en masse in disgust" is that most people to whom their faith is important see the entire picture rather than those parts with which they disagree. To a gay Catholic like Jay, the church's stance toward homosexuality may be abhorrent, but the aspects of the faith he responds to, from salvation to sacrifice to brotherhood with all mankind to serving the less fortunate, transcend the gay issue, as important as the latter might be.
Rather than being forced to change by members leaving the church, it's more likely that change will be forced because increasing numbers simply begin to pay less and less attention to the Vatican. This is certainly happening in the US, and this will certainly continue, especially related to issues such as homosexuality, birth control, abortion, etc. American Catholics have shown increasing independence from the Vatican. Once again I'll use Ted Kennedy as my example. On paper, his views were such that he should have left the church. But what he found valuable in Catholicism transcended that with which he disagreed. In fact, he wrote a letter to the Pope during his last couple of months, and the Pope replied. Americans will continue to revere the Pope as their spiritual leader, but continue to diverge politically. That process itself is part of the evolution I talk about.
In the end, though, all I am suggesting is this: let's view Catholicism with the complexity it possesses, recognizing both the good and the bad, the inspiring and the abhorrent.
Perhaps we do disagree
I agree with you that the Church is diverse and complicated. I'm not trying to stereotype. At the same time, we need to accurately describe the current situation. Because of the comfort and familiarity it provides them, too many Catholics (IMHO) want to excuse and ignore these dangerous warning signs, and the church hierarchy's off-the-charts egregious abuses of power (that begin, but don't end with the child abuse scandals), for which it has still not been held accountable.
I've been intimately familiar with the Church for all my 45 years of life (which includes 16 years of Catholic schooling). Obviously every Catholic must decide for him or herself how to respond to the church as an institution. But I've seen people "trying to change it from within" for decades, and rather than actually change things, it seems to me they've merely enabled these horrible abuses of power; they're supporting tyrants and despots. I repeat what I said before: the only real change possible is for people to actually leave the church -- as in, stop contributing money -- until things DO change. In this church, that is literally the ONLY power, the only "vote" they have.Check out my new fantasy website: TheTorchOnline.com. It's like AfterElton.com for fantasy geeks! And I Twitter
Actually, we don't disagree
I think we're focusing too much on the church heirarchy and the pope, which was at most an afterthought to my main point. Let me be clear. I was extremely disappointed by the choice of Benedict as pope, I despise his conservative viewpoints and what he's been doing in many respects. Further, I really don't share any beliefs with the Catholic church. Your knowledge of the organizational structure of the church is far better than mine, so I defer to that, and share your concern about its direction. My only point in this regard was that the church has historically changed with society in the past, and will undoubtedly do so in the future.
My main point, though, was to simply say we shouldn't look at the concept of "Catholicism" in a one-dimensional way. Under the umbrella of the heirarchy are millions upon millions of human beings whose faith has been a positive influence in their lives, and has informed their public actions (as with Ted Kennedy) in ways that made society better. I think it's wrong and unfair (and intellectually dishonest) to see the word "Catholic" and see nothing but Pope Benedict or the pedophile priest scandal. (And I'm not saying you yourself are doing that.)
I guess I'm really rebelling against what I see as the Fox News view of the world, where willfully one-sided analysis distorts one's perception of reality. Ted Kennedy failed at Chappaquiddick, and therefore he's an awful human being. "Government is bad", and therefore any national health bill crafted by the Obama administration is bad. Living wills will be covered by insurance, and therefore "death panels" will kill grandma. In this case, Pope Benedict is an asshat when it comes to gay issues, and therefore the perception is that Catholicism as a religion is less than worthless, and we can marginalize Catholics. Again, I know you're not doing that, but others do. I don't want Jay and our other gay Catholic friends to feel marginalized, or that they're "bad gays" for continuing to find value in their faith. And intellectually, it bothers me if we see Benedict's gay failings and see the pedophile priests, but we willfully don't see the positive side of Catholicism.
"Disordered" is Name-callimg IMO
The Chruch has every right not to belief in same-sex marriage. Were it instituted nationwide tomorrow they would be under no obligation to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. But that's not enough for them. They don't want ANYBODY to perfom same-sex marriage ceremonies of any kind.
And yes, you don't need a religion to do charity work.
Exactly
Precisely
No religion is obligated to do anything against it's beliefs. Catholics are under no obligation to marry Jews in a Jewish ceremony. And vice versa. Consequently any reigion that wants to marry us can do so. Others that don't don't have to. And the rest of us can go to city hall or -- of in Vegas -- a duly empowered Elvis Impersonator.
It's just that simple.
Wright's Books For Gay Charities
This guy
Thank you very much Dennis
Is 'polite' enough?
The last two popes (and their curias) have done their level best to roll back all the gains achieved by the laity in the Second Vatican Council. From the heady days of the 1960s in which Pope John XXII and Pope Paul VI actively sought out the views of the lay people in the Catholic Church, Popes JPII and Benedict the Whatever have spent the last 30 years removing the voice of the laity from consideration.
There isn't a polite conversation to be had with the Catholic Church because the heads of the church have rigorously removed any effective channels of communication with its own laity. Instead, they have adopted a clearly articulated and preached doctrine of the congregation being the sheep and the priests, bishops, cardinals and popes being the shepherds.
Add to this the papally-encouraged rise of hard-line, authoritarian, fundamentalist nutters like Opus Dei against such established orders as the Jesuits, Carmelites, Benedictines, Donimicans, et al and you have a situation in which a comparatively small number of men (and the're overwhelmingly men) control the direction of the Church.
One of the results of this (as you've pointed out) is that the vast majority of lay Catholics and a tremendous number low-level priests just ignore the Vatican as far as possible.
So, we recently had the glorious situation of Tony Blair, who made a very public conversion to Catholicism as soon as he'd stopped being Prime Minister and went off to meet the Pope in Rome. His next act was to go to a gay magazine and say very publicly that he thought the Church's teaching on homosexuality is wrong and doesn't acknowledge the real world.
The irony of this is that because the Curia had denigrated the importance of the laity, they can no longer respond to high-level lay Catholics to slap them down, because that would acknowledge that the laity is still important.
So, Jay, you and I are both in Britain - let's have a quick shufti at how the Catholic Church has tried to operate recently in our country. Two things spring immediately to mind on LGBT rights.
The first is the Catholic Church's opposition to anti-homophobic bullying legislation. The Church's position is that it already has anti-bullying policies in its schools and doesn't see the need to have any more. It's a poor argument on their part because the church's own anti-bullying policies aren't working that well anyway and as they refuse to contemplate teaching homosexuality except in terms of condemnation, they just can't tackle it if left to their own devices.
Now, bear in mind that suicide is the second highest cause of teen deaths in Britain after car accidents. Slightly over one third of those teens seem to be LGBT, which is a vast statistical anomaly if you work on the accepted wisdom that LGBT people make up a tenth of the population. By refusing to do anything to prevent anti-homophobic bullying, those Cardinals in the House of Lords trying to prevent legislation aren't even paying lip-service to their own oft-repeated mantra of 'love the sinner, hate the sin'. There is no ther way to read their actions other than to think they feel the life of an LGBT child is worth less than that of a 'straight' child.
This is casuistry and hypocracy on a colossal scale. Even within the teachings of the Catholic Church, suicide is a massively greater sin than homosexuality.
The second thing that springs to mind is the decision (taken at the highest levels) to shut down the country's largest Catholic adoption agency because they wouldn't follow the equality laws and treat LGBT prospective parents just as they would anyone else.
There was a great PR barrage of kerfuffle put up about how PC was ruining religious obligations and why should children be deprived homes because the queers wanted to be treated just like anyone else.
The moment you look behind the press releases, you can see what staggering hogwash the Catholic Church was putting out. The agencies were still prepared to meet other equalities legislation and put children with non-Catholic families - it was only the poofters and dykes they objected to.
In terms of basic Catholic dogma this is utter bullshit. It is an essential, fundamental, vital, cornerstone of Catholic theology that if you do not accept the seven Catholic dogmas, you are going to hell. That Catholic adoption agency was prepared to consign the souls of its children to hell by placing them in the homes of non-Catholics, but couldn't conceive of the idea placing the children with gay or lesbian couples who regularly repented their sins in confession in a Catholic church every Saturday.
And, briefly, on the Catholic Church's teaching on HIV and AIDS in Africa, it's not just motivated by their own doctrinal and religious policies. Although the teaching against condoms is cnsistent with Catholic teachings on birth control, the documented cases of Catholic clergy preaching that not only do condoms not help prevent HIV but in fact helps spread it is plain wicked. That is a deliberate evil.
Oh, and while we're at it, the connivance of the Catholic authorities in the active oppression - to the point of death - of gays and lesbians in African countries such as Uganda, Nigeria, Senegal and other places is nothing short of waging war on gays and lesbians.
I agree with you that there are many wonderful - even great - Catholics who will put their own lives on the line to save others. But to confuse them with the hard-line leaders of the Catholic Church is a mistake. These days, the Catholic Church doesn't have polite conversations with anyone. Benedict the Whatever has managed to piss off the Jews, the Muslims and the Church of England thus far and has shown no inclination to pay any attention to his own laity.
Enjoy as much discourse as you like with local priests, but don't fool yourself that it's making any difference.
Absolutely Spot On
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Making my point
I agree that Darrien's points are spot on, though, quite frankly, it's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. But, in an odd sort of way, he also makes two of the points I tried to make in my post above:
1. He refers to the "heady days of the 1960s" with Pope John XXIII (though he said John XXII - Darrien, you should be ashamed of yourself!) and Pope John VI, when the popes sought the input of lay people. John XXIII was an especially interesting fellow, and shows the difference one man in the top job can make. If the heirarchy can go from him to Benedict, it can also go back again.
2. Darrien also says "the vast majority of lay Catholics and a tremendous number of low-level priests just ignore the Vatican as far as possible". One of my points was that the church was so much more than the Vatican heirarchy, and this is a strong indication of that. I watched "Lions For Lambs" last night. The title refers to high quality troops being led by people not worthy of them. I see the Catholic religion in somewhat the same way.
Mea Culpa!
I make a full abasement about getting John XXIII's number wrong. It was a foolish mistake, but at least I tried to get his name right. Benedict the Whatever will forever be Benedict the Whatever - unless it's in Catholic circles, when Benedict the Nazi is the preferred title, of course.
Given the topic we're discussing, I've decided I really ought to take umbrage at 'shooting fish in a barrel'. As the fish (ichthys/ictus/ichthus) was one of the first symbols of Christianity, the usage of that phrase is clearly a direct attack on the very roots of Christianity!!!
Can I suggest 'whacking camels in a cul-de-sac' as a politically and religiously neutral alternative? :-)
"Whacking camels...
...in a cul-de-sac" it shall be!
Though on second thought, since camels carried the wise men to Bethlehem, wouldn't that also be objectionable???
Fair point
Dromedaries
Erm...you have basically
Erm...you have basically wasted hundreds of words telling me what I already know. I´m not some ignorant Catholic that doesn´t know the ´evil´ that happens in the upper echelons of the clergy. In the same way that I´m not some ignorant gay that thinks there is no homophobia in the world and everything is all hunky dory. (Or someone who shouts ´homophobia´ all the time like most guys on this site). All I was saying was that I don´t think the church is doing the ´we hate the gays and we want to eradicate them´ type of evil that you are purporting them to be doing. They are doing it because they think they are doing the right thing. Doesn´t mean that I´m condoning what they are doing.
Who said I was confusing the two? I was mainly referring to the non-hard-line people in the first place. These people are ´great´ like you put it, because of the majority of the church´s teachings. And just because these days the ´official´Church doesn´t have polite conversations with anyone, doesn´t mean we can´t try and change things from the bottom upwards. The reason why the church leaders don´t listen to the laity anymore is because they know that if we were allowed to make things right in the church, they will all be swept away. I can´t seem to get all my thoughts together at the moment because I am on holiday in Mallorca (which is why I would have replied to this much sooner), but it just seems to me that you all are letting your hatred of the Church´s official position against the gays to cloud your judgment. A bit hypocritical don´t you think? Considering you accuse them of hatred and all you are doing are giving them hatred back? Like I said, Catholocism has many good things about it and therefore it shouldn´t just be thrown away purely because some of the brainwashed leaders of it are twisting Jesus´ words to suit their own twisted beliefs. And I am 100% sure that at some point in the future things will change, and the Catholic Church will return to its roots and welcome gay people with open arms. That won´t happen if gay people turn all hypocritical and ´hate´ the Catholics. Anyway like I said my comments aren´t coherent...but I´m sure you all get my drift.
You can't have it both ways
I haven't suggested anywhere that I hate the Catholic Church and my post may have been motivated by a certain despair over the church's recent history and contempt for its leaders, but not hatred.
Ummm... and I'm defintely not not being hypocritical. Recently, Benedict the Whatever said that homosexuality was as dangerous to the future continuation of the world as global warming - and should be stopped in much the same way that the eradication of the Amazon rain forest should be stopped. In many ways that could be read as a genocidal call to arms to destroy homosexuals (which, btw, totally negates the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' thing).
I'm not calling for the destruction of Catholicism and I'm not denying that it has some good aspects.
Certainly, you are within your individual and religious rights to defend the Roman Catholic Church. But from what you've written, you seem to agree with my assessment of what's wrong with its hierarchy. So why are you throwing your rattle out of the pram?
The only point we seem to disagree on is whether any change can be brought about by a grass-roots action. I don't see it working because I've seen grass-roots action in operation in the Catholic Church since the mid-1980s and since then, the Church's official teachings have become increasingly authoritarian and anti-gay and lesbian.
If you have some plan to make grass-roots action work this time, I'd love to hear it.
(PS hope you're having a really great time on Mallorca. I once got horrendously queer-bashed on Minorca - broken nose, three fractured ribs, concussion, the full works - so I've avoided the Balearics. I hope htey've changed beyond all recognition and you're having a fabulous holiday.)
Well I was speaking more
Well I was speaking more generally about the replies to my original post when it comes to the hypocrisy and hating lol. I was just trying to give a different perspective and explain why I think that too much criticism of the church is wrong, since really the ´hatred´ or whatever is only really there because of its stance (and wrongful actions) concerning homosexuality. And it´s significant that it´s only really the gays it´s coming from. It is understandable to a certain extent, obviously, but like I said I was just trying to point out, that in my opinion, Catholocism isn´t all that bad and you´re opinion of it shouldn´t solely be because you are gay and it seems that the Catholics hate you. A lot of the time this isn´t the case, and it´s unfair to put all Catholics in one box just because of the actions of the small (in comparison) leading hierarchy. So yeah you are right, I do agree with your assessment, but like I said I was a bit disorientated yesterday and it just seemed that everyone was attacking me (as usual) just because I had a difference of opinion. I should be getting used to it by now lol. Sorry if it seemed as if it was a direct attack at you.
In terms of the grass-roots action, I have no ideas in particular lol...yet. It´s just I have always believed that it´s better to change an institution from the inside and not from the outside. Something which my childhood priest taught me in a discussion about Vatican II interestingly. So because I am proud to be gay and I am also be proud to be Catholic, I will always hope, pray, and hopefully take action in the future to change the Church´s stance on the gays....somehow.
Oh yeah Mallorca lol....it is veeerry hot. And it´s annoying that when I speak Spanish, they either don´t understand me or they answer me back in English lol. There is also a lot of Germans about lol...so don´t mention the war ;). No bashing yet, but I´m always vigilant! Thanks for asking :).
I'd agree, but
I do agree about there being many Catholics who are wonderful. However, it's the Catholic Church that's consistently picked fights with the gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, different people in this world. If many readers of this site are pissed off with the church, the church only has itself to blame. The gays didn't start this fight.
Has Mallorca provided you with a sunburn yet? Given that it's silly season in the press, the tabloids have been running stories about Germans hiding sun loungers in their bedrooms so they'd always have them first thing in the morning.
The Buck Stops At the Constitution
I have to agree that hating those who hate us does nothing for our cause. Fighting fire with fire only causes a bigger blaze. Many people think mistakenly that when they oppose gay marriage, that is the loving position. These are people who live their lives by the Bible (which is worthy of a whole forum) and who interpret it way too literally. We should feel compassion for these people, and act on compassion, not on anger. They're not the same people as Fred Phelps or Wright or Card; we shouldn't lump them together.
As far as changing hearts, I have to concur that the best way to do so is to explain the difference between a church-recognized marriage and a state-recognized marriage. The church has every right to refuse to perform a marriage ceremony; but my government, the one that I pay for with my tax dollars, ought to provide me and my partner with a marriage license should we friggin' want one.
This doesn't mean we sue wedding photographers or caterers for not accepting gay wedding business (I believe in using the free market for that and going to their highest competitor who will accept our rainbow dollars) but it does mean we assert that we ourselves are covered by the Constitution's affirmation of individual liberties, whether they're explicitly stated or not.
So people can have whatever religious beliefs they want, but when it comes to the Constitution and its fundamental principle of individual freedoms, such people have to demure. The Constitution, not the church, has the final word in this regard. In my experience, when people are reminded of that basic principle, they're able to see past their beliefs and look at the bigger picture.
And it can be done without stoking the flames of hatred.
"When the people fear its government, that's tyranny. When the government fears its people, that's liberty."
- Benjamin Franklin