Prop 8 Update: Boycott Utah, Ellen speaks, "The Daily Show" mocks, and more!

You said "...segment on Monday which mocked Prop 8 opponents who..."

You really meant "proponents", right? Gotta love Stewart.

 

The_FNG 

 

 

it's dumb enough people had to vote to overturn something as harmless as freaking marriage.

...but i am curious....if once again, people try and overturn this new...umm...law? is it a law now? well, how many times are people able to keep trying to overturn something?

Craig Young makes some very good points, particularly about the small sampling of voters used in the exit polling data as well as the lack of voter participation in the LGBT community.

I do object to Craig's use of the word "scapegoating."  I am not sure if he has seen something I have not, but scapegoating to me implies the black community is being blamed exclusively for the success of Prop 8.  As you can see from this post, much of the anger is being directed at the Mormons who bankrolled many of the false but effective ads to end marriage equality.  I have not heard of any protests being planned in front of the many homophobic black churches in California, such as the one occurring at the Mormon temple.

The difference in the responses is due to the fact that we expect this sort of hatred from Mormons.  It still hurts, but the gay community has come to realize there are many Christians who will always hate us.  They feel we are a threat to their Judeo-Christian heteronormative power, and they want to oppress us at all costs.

When we experience the same from a community whom we thought might understand our struggle, we are truly shocked and hurt.  It may be shortsighted, but I think it is confusing for many gay people to experience hatred from the black community.  Black people in this country have gone through so much, and still have many more obstacles to overcome.  It seems counter to all logic to have such a historically discriminated against group overwhelmingly support discrimination.  White people we expect it from because they most likely have not experienced bigotry, but black people should be able to empathize with our plight.

Apparently, no one is immune to hatred.  We just have to make sure all of us in the gay community do not submit to hateful feelings ourselves.

I don't know about Craig (sorry to namecheck you Craig) but yesterday what had ME IN TEARS beyond the horror of what happened in California were the follow posts, each of which was responded to with APPROVAL by members of the AfterElton community (and some dissapproval as well but not nearly enough).

I've heard/read comments like these on the radio and on WNYC's website.

It broke my heart is all i can say. This has all been so taken out of context. Yes 70% of AA voters in Cally voted yes on Prop 8, AND WHAT? 

It's not surprising that conservative christians would support Prop 8 (I don't care what color they are!) 

THEY ARE ALL CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS. That's the real issue. The fact that they are African American women (for the most part) makes sense because amost all African Americans who are religious are Christians.

If the poll had asked every single one of those voters I'd bet my best handbag that they were all Christians and based their vote of no on Prop 8 on some bible based philosophy.

The reason why it's inflammatory is because none of the folks who keep point out the 6% of the population that voted for Prop 8 who happen to be black are also Christian and they they way the did NOT BECAUSE BLACK FOLKS HATE GAYS but because just like the MORMANS and the AFA folks and the Focus on the Family folks, they believe what their church tells them.

PROGRESSIVE RELIGIOUS FOLKS OF ALL FAITH ARE INCLUSIVE OF AND SUPPORTIVE OF GAYS. THAT INCLUDES PROGRESSIVE BLACK CHRISTIANS.

Just throwing out comments like the ones posted below YESTERDAY ON AE doesn't inform or educate, it only blames.

 

POSTS FROM YESTERDAY'S COMMENTS SECTION ABOUT PROP 8

Exactly Submitted by
Zeta (75 points) (21 posts)
on Wed, 2008-11-05 11:50.
The message of the Racial Minorities is now "We've Got Ours, Finally, To Hell with the GLBTS."

he said it better!!

 

thats the thing I was trying to say!! but obviously Zeta beat me to it :)

 

Barack Obama was the cause
Submitted byZeta (85 points) (23 posts)
on Wed, 2008-11-05 11:14.
"Every ethnic group supported marriage equality, except African-Americans, who voted overwhelmingly against extending to gay people the civil rights once denied them: a staggering 69 - 31 percent African-American margin against marriage equality. That's worse than even I expected. Whites, on the other hand, clearly rejected discrimination: 55 to 45 percent. Latinos were evenly split." -Andrew Sullivan
Average (6 votes):
see individual ratings


Simple
Submitted by Zeta (85 points) (23 posts)
on Wed, 2008-11-05 11:29.

African American voters show up in record numbers to support Obama.

Obama's against Proposition 8, but most other African Americans are for it.

2+2=4. Obama caused more African Americans to vote for him, but they voted for Prop 8 at the same time, ignoring his stance. All they wanted was a man in the White House and fuck the other minorities.
Average (6 votes):

 

 

 

"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorthy Parker)

http://www.ecinc.org/Records/rec_spring2004.htm (look for the hateful KKK quote)

Whenever people divide in groups, there's all sorts of splits.  

There's this: http://www.affirmation.org/

http://www.gaychristian.net/greatdebate.php?

 http://www.jordanrustincoalition.org/about.html

It's kinda like fandoms, actually

 

I can't begin to tell you about all the arguments I've gotten into with straight African-Americans over the years.

I remind thme of the pivotal importance of gays and lesbians like Bayard Rustin, Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston and James Baldwin to the civil rights struggle and some of them simply shut down and refuse to deal with it -- mindlessly mouthing platitudes about what "God" has allegeendly "said" on the subject.

 

I do not begrudge any LBGT individual, white or black their righteous anger.   

 

The truth or falseness of how much African Americans had to do with Prop 8's passing does not excuse racism.

Interestingly, I'm listening to a radio show about this subject right now and there was just a black gay man talking about how he feels betrayed by his family voting for this. As someone who was raised Mormon and whose family did the same thing I can completely identify.

I was at the rally in WeHo last night and while satisitics were sited and stories related no one "blamed" or "scapegoated" the black community. The No on 8 leadership called upon everyone to help educate all people whether they are black, latino, religious, or what have you, who don't understand that this is a civil rights issue. Prop 8 was won because people refuse to educate themselves or understand that discrimination against the LGBT community is the same as discrimination against every other group of people.

I and many of my friends were also at the polls on the 4th and saw with own eyes (even though this is ancedotal) that many different minority communities were overwleming in support of 8.

I was listening to Pat Morrison's show (mentioned above) and an African American woman called in saying that she did not believe that the LGBT community could be equated with her community and struggle, because they choose their sexual orientation, the bible says so and the myriad of other falsehoods that all uninformed people trot out.

It is these kinds of experiences that inform people's perception as much as exit polls.

We have to move beyond group mentality and speak one-on-one with as many people as we can who voted for Prop 8 so that they can understand the issue and learn the error of their ways.

 

 

Here is a response over at Dan Savage site by a black community activist that I thought was enlightening regarding the issue I raised: "Let me start off by saying that I am a hetero Black woman living in Los Angeles. And I am as saddened/frustrated/disheartened/pissed off as a lot of the rest of you at the passing of Prop 8. It was a black eye on Tuesday, as far as I'm concerned... That being said Dan, DO NOT even try, for a minute, to put this off on Black folks. For real. We account for roughly 6 percent of the total population out here, so, I think, that when the real stats come out on this, (fuck an exit poll, cause a lot of people aren't comfortable with telling a pollster that they're prejudiced about certain things), we're gonna see that it's the collective ignorance & intolerance of a LOT of muthafuckas, of all races, that need to be addressed. I work in corporate America, & just as many White people as minority people here told me that they weren't comfortable with legalizing gay marriage either. You go outside of LA/SF city limits, & it's another world... Calm your ass down, check out this link & then YOU do the math... [deleted] Does the Black community have a serious homophobia problem? Yes, it does & I'm not going to excuse it. And it really needs to be addressed, on a lot of different levels, because it's hurting us as a community. But until more outreach is done in Black & Latino communities by our Black & Latino gay & lesbian brothers & sisters, it's not going to get better. And to be quite honest, as a community organizer, I saw a lack of intensity from a lot of the gays that I know regarding this issue. Not everyone was doing his/her part on this. I think they just felt that it was going to fail because it was unfair. A lot of people slept on this until it became apparent that this thing had a REAL good chance of passing. That's when the scrambling around began, but it was already too late to stop the momentum. I also think that the folks directing the campaign on NO on Prop. 8 should've done more outreach in the hood/barrio. It wasn't until the 2 weeks or so before the election that I heard ads on the radio asking Black folks to consider the unfairness of the Proposition. There should have been outreach into Black churches, maybe approaching some of the Black local politicians, etc. in order for this thing to be made relevant for a lot of people of color. Because the face of what was shown by the NO on 8 was just some dry ass gay White couples telling their story. & while yes, that shouldn't have anything to do with it, the reality is that the avg. Black person is seeing this & there is a disconnect because they can't relate to those people at all, not them or the folks in West Hollywood, who for the most part are White, & tend to identify themselves more by sexual orientation & are oftentimes more involved in the gay community. A big part of the failure of the attempt to defeat this proposal was just plain old bad execution on the part of the folks who were running this thing. Black folks should've been made aware of the consequences that voting Yes on this Proposition was going to have on their own sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, neighbors, etc., the message should've been more tailored demographically...more personal. The YES folks had a well organized team on the ground, and even at the polls, answering people's questions (lying), etc. Yes, they were a lot more well funded, & but still, I think they were able to execute more effectively. And they converged on the Black & Latino communities, especially in churches, they went to conservative Orange County, San Diego area, playing on a lotta folks' ignorance & fears. So, I understand muthafuckas are pissed, but don't start none, won't be none. Put blame where blame is due, on ALL of us who didn't do enough to educate or combat the ignorance of others, not just on some... Peace."

 

I am very sorry to see Prop 8 passed in CA!  I donated $ from 3000 miles away. 

The Morman's should be totally ashamed of themselves with such bigoted support and funding of Prop 8 to the tune of MILLIONS of $.  They can believe what they want, but there's no way a majority should be allowed to deny rights to a minority - religous based or otherwise. 

Their clear funding and involvement deserves special focus.  Maybe as part of the rash of lawsuites, the GBLT community can mount a multi-facted assault by targeting to revoke its federal tax-exempt status (after Obama is in office) and also put it on the ballot in CA and UT to revoke their tax exempt status at a state level as well.     Unrelentlessly picketing Morman temples across the US, especially on a Sunday and when in use would be press they don't want and the more coordination the better. 

 I hope many of you know that UT has the highest teen suicide rate in the US - wanna guess why? 

It would be so sweet if this involvement started the motion to revoke their tax-exmpt status -  I'd personlly think it was Karma in full force. 

Vincent

 

Since their founding in the mid-1800's up until the 1970's, Mormons openly proclaimed black people to be the fallen race, the cursed Race of the Devil. Mormonism condemns black people for being black. Their belief is the whites descended from Abel, and Cain who killed Abel was cursed for the murder and became the ancestor of black people. This is the notion Mormonism is founded upon. Yep, that scary. Most black people do not even realize this fact. It is rarely discussed openly (kinda of like how Mormonism founder Joseph Smith was killed by an angry Illinois mob after he tried killing his own followers). So sadly it was like 70% of black voters in California joining a group even more anti-black than the Klan to violate other people's human rights.

It is important to send extra love and emotional support to the 30% of black voters in California who didn't join in the effort to violate basic human rights, and to black gay people in California, all of whom no doubt wonder: What the #&@* were the 70% thinking?

 

I don't want the brotha at the end of The Daily Show clip teaching anyone about homosexuality...

& for those interested in another Black perspective, here is a suggestion -

Lay down nuanced concerns about racial division for the moment in order to bolster the energy and support currently needed to nourish a united community.

The divisiveness that can arise from ambigiously articulated racial concerns is powerful enough to divert attention away from our commonalities.

we are 

Strong. Subjugated. Minorities.

who would benefit from an immense show of intracommunity support, in order to attain passage of measures like Proposition 8

We can fuss & fight about how to bring racial cohesiveness to the gay community, after we ensure our right to marrigequity

By that time, if Stephen Colbert is to be believed, our racial difficulties may have long since resolved:

"Barack Obama is President. Racism is over." - from The Colbert Report

Here's to hoping...

I appreciate the dialogue posted here.  As a Gay Latino and an activist living in Illinois but still consider California my home I have been really struggling how to put the passing of Prop 8 into perspective.  I am pissed but reading the conversations I am trying to channel my anger into thinking about what went wrong and what needs to be done next time.  Thanks Craig and others for putting yours thoughts out there.

I read the following article and thought it might add something to the dialogue initiated here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_el_pr/mutts_like_me

Just thought I'd weigh in and say this thread has been very helpful.

I am one of those gay whites who has been miffed at the black community. I appreciate Craig's and other's comments, and they have tempered my anger. Craig may be right that the numbers are wrong. Still, I have vivid memories of living in DC years back where some of the staunchest opponents of gay rights in the city were black clergy. No matter what numbers of African Americans are voting for, or against, I think there is a higher expectation among gays that black people would be supportive of civil rights for all. After some of the battles in DC, I realized this was not always the case.

As a gay person, who has been a friend to the black community, it feels like betrayal when black voters don't have your back as you've had theirs. Anyway, it's this 'higher expectation' that has steered some anger over prop 8 toward the African American community. The latinos, asians and other minority groups don't get this attention because they don't figure into the US civil rights history as prominently. I'm not saying other minority groups aren't contributers to the civil rights movement, but rather acknowledging the black community as the parents of the civil rights movement. As Craig has pointed out, percentage wise, the black vote is still pretty small, relatively. Black voters did not make, or break prop 8. Excellent point about the un-registered gay voters! In truth, we have only ourselves to blame.

Anyway, I see there being some continued animosity between the black and gay communities. But, as has been pointed out here, the solution must revolve around more conversation between the two groups. It's an interesting dynamic too, because sexuality transcends race. It's not one group against another because there are many black homosexuals. Well, that's about all I had to say. I remain a friend to the black community, but it's a friend I'm a little angry with at the moment. In all fairness though, I'm far more angry with the religious establishments. 

 Thanks for the great posts. This thread was a good read. 

I am upset about this erroneous finger pointing at African-Americans regarding Proposition 8.  Why are you so quick to believe whatever you hear?  If someone told me 70 percent of gay people voted against Obama my first thought would be, excuse me Jesus, that is crap! I don't believe it!   This political year was fraught with right wing lies. Bear that in mind.

 

"Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state."

 

Still, even though gays were fighting to preserve a basic right, it was the anti-equality side in California that seemed to have the most fervor. A symbolic low point for the gay side came on Oct. 13, when the Sacramento Bee ran a remarkable story about Rick and Pam Patterson, a Mormon couple of modest means - he drives a 10-year-old Honda Civic, she raises their five boys - who had withdrawn $50,000 from their savings account and given it to the pro-8 campaign. "It was a decision we made very prayerfully," Pam Patterson, 48, told the Bee's Jennifer Garza. "Was it an easy decision? No. But it was a clear decision, one that had so much potential to benefit our children and their children.”

 

This is your real enemy. Don't trust exit polls. I think they are pitting one group against the other. African-Americans are less than 7% of the state population, do the math.  Many more Whites voted and they put this over, not Blacks. What are the total numbers of each group that voted. Someone dug into the data and found that we're just now learning is that the exit poll was based on less than 2,300 people. If you take into account that blacks in California only make up about 6.2%, we get roughly 224 blacks who were polled. 224 blacks to blame an entire race! The original percentage of black voters who were expected to say yes to Prop 8 was only around 52-58%. Anytime you get a vote that much higher over the projected vote, something went wrong. 

 

I know someone who watches C-Span and they said most Blacks did not even address the question at all. And they do not have the money to fund a tens of millions of dollars Proposition 8 campaign. Note that they also targeted affirmative action for eradication in another state.

I cannot believe that these groups get a pass and Blacks are being targeted for the blame game. Rather than be upset at the phantom African-American menace, fight like hell. There is no right wing black conspiracy against gay Americans.  When you tried to align your struggle with that of Blacks you inherited their enemies. These same enemies are now trying to pit one against the other because they fear the combined numbers of both.

How many gay activists supported the civil rights movement in the 1960’s?  Then how do you automatically expect support in return?  Have you asked Blacks to support you or did you just assume?

 

No one gave Obama anything and they will not give gays anything either.  Obama stands on the shoulders of a lot of brave people who gave their lives for him to stand on that podium last night.

 

Never trust exits polls because in all my years of life, no one has ever been seen at a polling place asking anyone anything when they left.

 

Don't fall for the lies.

 

           

           

There was a time when I would have been very much against such an idea. However, minorities have proven overwhelmingly that, given the chance, they are just as bigoted as the people they claim are keeping them down. It's proof positive that they don't need or deserve any special rights either. I'd vote to do away with AA in a heart beat.

 

 

If you read the opinion page of the LA Times on Saturday, you will see the divide between the Gay and the African American community.  A black lesbian checked in and showed her comtempt and racism towards the "gay white community".  Her "opinion" was good enough to pick up my dog's poop and reminded me of Clarence Thomas.  Many years ago I read a book called A Different Mirror.  This book details ethnic struggles within the US from Colonial times to the Black civil rights movement.  The bottom line is that the group prior uses stereotypes and lies to oppress the group after it.  This is exactl;y where we are.  To have a minority group overwhelmingly (70% do the math) use the power of the ballot to discriminate agains another minority group is oppression, clear and simple.