So You Think Can Knock Off the Homophobia, Nigel Lythgoe?

Coz Jason Coleman from our Australian SYTYCD also has been saying the same thing as Nigel. What Jason says, is that "he wants to see his boys masculine".

When we judge a dance routine, do we even judge the sex of the dancer, more so about the routine itself? Are we saying to a guy who dances that he is not male, physically, enough, for the routine? If that is the case, can we judge Nigel's rosy (read: PINK) cheeks and grey (read: SILVERISH & GLITTERY) hair?

Shame on Dance really. If I must speculate, Nigel must have had a father that belittled him when he started dancing.

I wonder why no one has likened Britney Spears having a group of male dancers dancing/prancing around her as to having group sex? And for god's sake, teenagers watch that everyday on MTV without supervision of their fathers/mothers. We're against same-sex but group sex is OK now are we?

I can almost see where the judges are coming from.  Dancing is a sport heavily entrenched in gender roles,  such as leader & follower. Typically the male is the leader & the female is the follower. So i can see why the judges where slightly befuddled about that.  Dancing was also formed during times in history where men had to follow masculine roles & women feminine roles; dancing reflects this. There are even certain ways a men to to hold a woman & a woman a man in certain dances.

However, while i can see slight confusion from nontraditional dancing roles & giggle or two due to their outfits [made me giggle], there is no way i can see these comments being made. Mr Lythoge was completely & totally in the wrong, as is Fox. It is disgusting to  see that such insults toward these contestants. While the dance may have featured nontraditional paring & the technical analyses was sound, there was no need to ask if the dancers danced with girls before. The It's Raining Men [while a lovely tune] is insulting. & as if that is not enough, they decide to play a lyric that essentially says, "Since you are gay, your life is s*** cause there are no women." It vexxes beyond belief. 

The other thing that deeply upsets me is that there are going to some people who think that Mr Belfer is just being a drama queen over the whole situation. I am ever so sorry that Mr Belfer had to experience such a thing & am quite compelled to bake him cookies.

<3

Why do douchebags go on these reality shows expecting the judges to "be nice" to them just because they show up?

It's a DANCE competition. They judged these two guys from the perspective of casting them on a show where they are expected to dance with female partners. Period. They gave them a fair chance by sending them to coreography as they would with any skilled dancers who showed promise.

Pick your battles. This show is not the appropriate venue for anyone's personal crusades.

All dancers (men and women) learn how to lead and follow.  It's a standard part of dance.  The female pros on DWTS have to know how to lead in order to teach the lead to their male partners.

Dance is performance. It is acting. The important thing when you are watching partners dance is that you have to be invested in their partnership you have to feel the love basically.  You have to want to feel the love.

If judges want to say that ballroom dance is not about sexual tension and desire but only about who leads and who follows, then it shouldn't matter who partners with whom as long as one person leads and the other follows and they do it well. 

If you are a judge of any merit, you should have no problem figuring out who's leading and whose following if you're actually watching a couple dance. 

If judges want to say that dancing is about sexual tension and desire  then having dance partners of the same sex makes as much sense as having dance parners of the opposite sex who are straight. 

There is no difference between straight partners creating the illusion of desire, longing and love in their dance than gay partners doing the same thing.

The only thing blocking Mary and Nigel from being able to "understand" was heterosexim and homophobia.  If you can't stand the sight of two men having desire for each other or longing for each other (on the dance floor or anywhere else) then yeah, you're gonna get confused.

It's Nigel's show. He can do whatever he wants. 

Many of the rules and norms and expectations of Western sports and physical arts are based on archaic notions of traditional gender roles and concepts of masculine and feminine that were patriarchial, sexist and heterosexist. 

Shows like Dancing with the Stars and So You Think You Can Dance are supposed to be about bringing traditional ballroom and other forms of dance into the mainstream, modern cultural landscape and therefore they have to change with the times.  They already use non-traditional music, modern pop and rock music with traditional dances in order to appeal to younger generations.  

While technique and basic rules for movement and steps should be maintained and standard, there is nothing so scandalous or outrageous or strange about two men dancing together in 2009 that the sight of it should send judges swirling into a sea of confused paralysis.   

If you love "THE GAYS" then you shouldn't have a problem with the idea of two men performing a dance together and as a professional judge you should be able to get past your own antiquated notions of masculinity and femininity  and male/female gender roles in dance to judge a couple based upon their performance.  If you want to.

This competition should be about talent and skill and technique.  As long as contestants are judged along that basis, everything else should be open to artistic interpretation.

The battle for acceptance and equality is not just about laws and legistlation it is also about words and breaking down traditional norms of what men and women should do and how men and women should act.

Ideas of masculinity and femininity have been inextricably linked to sexual orientation.  We may not think of it that way, but Nigel's comments and Mary's comments show the truth in this.

Gender roles are affectations.  All human beings have the capacity to exhibit both masculine and feminine traits but they temper their expression to conform to their particular cultural norm.  But men and women's "roles" have been continually changing and will go on changing and feminism and gay rights are a big part of that. 

The fact that men are supposed to only be masculine and women are supposed to only be feminine is not only a cultural decision we make everyday but it's predicated on a straight, male/female sexual/social interaction model and we as gay people SHOULD call it into question when it becomes an impediment to our fully  and openly participating in the arts and sorts.

Men are supposed to be masculine for women.  Women are supposed to be feminine for men.

Gay people should not be expected to protect this antiquated model so that straight people can feel comfortable.  

Gay men can do ballroom dance as long as they partner with women sounds very much like the "Gay men can get married as long as they marry women" logic.

Gay marriage, gay parenting and yes, gay partnering in dance and skating, call these accepted notions of  the relationship between gender roles/expression and sexuality and sexual orientation into question.

Every time a child of two gay men says "my dads or my moms" instead of my mother and father it's a challenge to traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity and gender roles.

It's all connected, it's all part of the same battle and yes, it is a big deal.

Every little crack in the foundation of homophobia and heterosexism matters.

"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorothy Parker)

I could never get into this show mainly due to the judges. I find them all annoying and ridiculous. Also funny how Nigel wants "men to be men and women to be women on stage" when he's sitting at a table with what appears to be an incredibly butch women(Sony) who during one part of the show was writihing and practically having an orgasm every time a female danced well.

I watched the show and was so angry when I listened to Nigel and his homophobic remarks.  He is probably the one who encouraged the same thing when he was on Idol.  I agree with Misha that FOX and Nigel both men an apology.  I am so glad that Misha stood up to them!

My biggest problem with Nigel is, if two very masculine men came on and danced a contemporary piece which was clearly about the love the two men have for each other, he would still take issue with it.  "Boys" are being "boys" but he'd still say he can't grasp the lack of a feminine role.  I would love for Mia Michaels to come out with some amazing love story between two Iraq War vets, or for Tabitha and Napoleon to make a lyrical hip-hop between two football players acknowleding a growing attraction to each other.  But I get the strong impression Nigel would stomp that out before it even came close.  

These auditions were filmed before Adam Lambert became the sensation he has.  I wonder if Nigel would feel differently now, seeing how a (probably) gay man could capture the nation's attention.  Then again Adam didn't win, so who knows?

Mary was right about the dancing. They kept switching roles between the leader and the follower and in ballroom you stick to one role. I think that this is a TV show, you have two clearly effeminate men dancing a traditional male-female dance and not being that spectacular. My opinion is that if you're going to be the first at something, be damn good at it. Props to both of them for getting up there and doing it, it was brave of them. But Mary's point was valid, and Nigel was just baiting. I've danced for a long time and it is very rare to see two men dance together.

Sure, his show, his rules, etc.--and Mitchell and Misha falling over at the end sure didn't help--but his remarks were really snarky and unfair.  Mary seemed more nonplussed, and the third judge actually seemed interested in their performance.

What's galling is in past seasons they've had two men dance together (Benji and the guy who's name I can't remember, Joshua and another guy last year).  Both of those dances, however, very much worked traditional "masculine" energies--the men were competing with each other, showboating, etc.  It was sexy and exciting, but in no way tender, etc.  (I'm hard pressed to think if either couple ever even touched, but they're both on YouTube.)  What Nigel clearly has an issue with is any sort of gentleness, tenderness, delicacy, or intimacy involving two men in dance, which can indeed be describe as homophobic.  The judges love hip-hop because it allows men to dance together and get "in each other's faces," but once again it's back to men being aggressive/hostile, competing, etc. 

What a surprisingly limited, blinkered view of the world.  I'm genuinely surprised.  (However, it doesn't surprise me that Cat Deeley was a sweetheart--she's one of the best hosts I've ever seen on a reality competition show.)

I have to say that while the treatment that these two men received was unquestionably horrible, I don't know that I'm a fan of two men dancing the samba together myself, to be honest. For one, the bells-and-whistles of traditional ballroom dance are, to me, kind of ridiculous and off-putting to begin with (am I the only one who laughs at the ridiculous outfits on Dancing With the Stars?). And, as it's been pointed out here, many of these traditional dances were built around a male/female juxtaposition that might not lend itself well to a same-sex pairing due to a need for a difference in build, stature, flexibility, muscular strength, etc. 

BUT .... I have seen modern dance routines (which SYTYCD features regularly and prominently) between two men that have been simply stunning. In fact, I saw an amazing dance last year that was about the struggle between equally masculine and feminine forces in a man-man relationship (and was choreographed by the straight-but-not-narrow actor Taye Diggs) that didn't cast either man as "the girl" or "the guy", which made the narrative quite powerful as it took into account the complexity of a same-sex relationship when it comes to traditional gender roles. 

Maybe a same-sex couple coming into SYTYCD with a modern routine that didn't try to fit what these judges (and many others) see as a fairly rigid set of rules would have better luck? Or do the auditioning rules allow that?

Black women were once routinely told that they couldn't be successful ballet dancers because their bodies were wrongly proportioned and they would always be too heavy and bulky, etc. Like it was physically impossible for them to be taken seriously as graceful ballerinas.  That was crap and this stuff about men dancing together is crap too.

Yes, there had to be an Alvin Alley and Dance Theater of Harlem in order for folks to see how bassackwards that line of thinking was but change happened and it didn't ruin traditional ballet to incorporate black ballet dancer and there are many mixed companies now (not as many as there should be but they exist)

This isn't about whether one does or doesn't like ballroom dancing.  You either like it or you don't and much like with ice skating, men regardless of their sexuality or level of masculinity will always be gay baited.  If you don't like seeing men in tight fitting spandex jumpsuites with fringe and such then you aren't going to like watching men figure skate or ballroom dance.

That's not really the issue.

My main issues with Nigel and Mary have to do with this idea that they couldn't get past the fact that it was two men to JUST focus on technique. 

They could have said, "You know, that could have been beautiful or interesting or ground breaking performance if the two of you hadn't been such crap dancers"

One man was straight, the other was gay and yet folks still called them both effiminate (which I think has more to do with how men see male ballroom dancers than how the dancer actually behaves.)  It's like folks NEED to have a woman there to validate the man's masculinity and men just can't get past the costumes to see the masculinity unless is one of those dances where the man is hyper masculine and the woman's being thrown around the floor.

But my larger point is that expectations and perceptions and even RULES in dance and figure skating and gymnastics change as society changes. They have too.

Benji Swimmer baited repeatedly for not being masculine enough and tough enough and yet he rocked that freaking stage no matter what dance they threw at him.  They also told his incredible partner Donyelle that she was fat, too big to be a dancer and to big to be his partner and they were one of the most popular couples the show that season and since (and not because of popularity but because they killed every dance) 

There is nothing traditional about SYTYCD.  It's not a traditional ballroom setting.  If there was ever a place where rules and expectations could be challenged it should be a show that's targeted toward the MTV generation of viewers (as opposed to DWTS which as a much older demographic)

That "discomfort" that folks feel watching one man lead another or men alternating leads in ballroom dance as opposed to modern dance routine is the thing that needs to be called into question.

If it was just about skill and technique then Nigel and Mary both could have left the gender scripting heterosexist comments  at the door and just talked about skill and technique and presentation of the male pair and left it at that.

I've seen male/male couples dance together in all kinds of ballroom and they don't all "feel" the same and they don't all look the same and the level of "masculinity" and "femininity" is different depending upon who's dancing.

Saying "that's just the way it is in the world of dance" doesn't cut it for me because these are folks who are trying to break out of their past dance experience in order to be back up dancers and show dancers.  Some may already be  professional ballroom dancers but that's NOT the ultimate goal of the show.  Who knows what kind of partnering or dancing they'll have to do once they leave the show.

Nigel and Mary could have embraced the male male coulple and said, okay, if you're going to do it, then here's how you need to do it or how you should have done it but homophobia and hetereosexism prevented them from even seeing that is COULD be done brilliantly with the right male male dance partner.  

I find that offensive.

"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorothy Parker)

I've not seen this show so I couldn't be 100% certain, but this Nigel Lythgoe - British by any chance?  If so, is it possible he's the same man who had a group of men and women called the Nigel Lythgoe Dancers that turned up on just about every cheesey variety programme on ITV (Brit commercial station) in the 1970s?  From what I remember from some of the choreography and costumes, He hasn't always preferred his 'men to be men'.

If he is British I'm sorry you've been landed with the bollock brain.  And from the way you describe it's been edited/soundtracked, sounds like Fox want him to be another Simon Cowell - in other words a BIG bollock brain. 

He is also the one that made one of the band "hear say" cry for being too fat when they clearly were not!

He was the British "mister nasty" before Simon Cowell took over, Thank got he moved to the states and away from our screens

"Nigel told me that they [the show] has spent all these seasons trying to build up the idea that a male can dance and make it more acceptable, and we didn't really help the cause."

^ this sounds weird. nigel wanted to build the idea that a male can dance? what? fred astaire danced and that was acceptable....as did gene kelly...even frank freaking sinatra. 

btw, this is on FOX, right? not surprised. FOX seems to hire people who make stupid remarks like this or remarks about being closeted or a crossdresser or whatever....simon cowell and ryan seacrest...now nigel.

 

Michael, your comments expressed my thoughts exactly.  I was particularly struck by the attitude of Mary, who seemed to find anything other than boy/girl, blue/pink as utterly incomprehensible.  She's never heard of Mark Morris or other modern choreographers who play with gender?  These people are dance pros and are simply thunderstruck at non-traditional dancing?

OK, the good news is that they were there and they were seen.  That's always step one.  As others have suggested, ballroom dancing can appear pretty silly to begin with, and I'm not a fan.  But surely there were hundreds of young boys and girls quietly watching this duo around the country who thought to themselves, 'Huh!  Why not?  That looks cool." And don't discount the fact that one young man was gay and one was straight.  So, as an exercise in crossing boundaries, it may have been more valuable than we realize.  Next year: who knows?  Two men or two women in a Mark Morris kind of gender f*** performance?

Since Nigel has talked about wanting masculine male dancers, I guess I can see why he would be confused by switching up of lead and follow, because the lead role is the the traditional male role. But other than that, the fact that they were dancing ballroom with each other wasn't a big deal in the context of the competition, because if they went through, they wouldn't expect to dance with each other! They wouldn't expect to dance with other guys. They'd be doing their solo dances alone, and partner dances with females, just like every other male contestant. This was just their audition piece to show their technical ability.

As for judging their technical ability, if they weren't good enough, it's completely fine for the judges to say so.  I think the judges should have focussed on that, instead of all the extra stuff.

I do wish Mia had been on the panel that day. I'm sure she would have been less shocked than the others.

Nigel Lythgoe is very much like many male dancers (most of a "certain" age), who are supposedly staight, but had to deal with a lot of prejudice growing up from their families (especially fathers) and were bullied etc...  BUT, rather than blame their homophobic fathers or the jerks who beat them up they project the blame onto gay male dancers they percieve as effeminate.  They blame the dancers for the homophobic reactions of their fathers rather than the fathers themselves.  I saw it all the time among even gay male dancers.

Also, from what I've seen in the mainstream ballroom dance world, even though many of the male dancers seem pretty effeminate and the whole look is scare drag they are pretty aggressive in asserting their heterosexuality.

You want to see two men dancing together in a completely romantic, heartbreaking way -- which is what it's all about? How about Brian and Justin dancing at the Prom on "Queer as Folk"? Or the two Captain Jacks dancing together on the eve of one's death in "Torchwood"? Or the final scene of "Beautiful Thing"? Those are only three examples -- there are others. How about the "Swan Lake" in "Billy Elliot"? Ever hear of that, Nigel? I defy anyone to find these scenes "funny" or "weird" or "inappropriate" -- or anything other than utterly beautiful. "Straight" guys who are so insecure about their masculinity and yet go into dance (or fashion or any other "gay" profession) need to get over themselves and grow a pair. It's a different world, gentlemen.

For Nigel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrZncChzHK4&feature=related

I JUST watched the episode and didn't like this couple's presentation. I would have liked to see them be a bit more butch. From the baby blue sashes and the waxed chest exposed to the naval, to the fey bend of the wrist and tush-push presentation of the buttocks I found the entire thing to be too swishy & nelly. Also, THEY FELL. 

I would love to see a strong male/male couple present more masculine pairing. (I realize that I am setting myself up for comments about "self-hating" and "internalized homophobia". Please be kind!)

i didn't watch this show(my place tv channel not showing this show.)but what read above,i think that there are many people still not understand that the world is changing and everything also changing.(exp:in old chinese tradition,woman cannot working and only stay at home to take care family.)but nowdays,many woman working and some of them also can manage the job that usually by man.

so i still not understand what wrong when two males dancing together.if we look to them weird ,they also look we weird too.

I too raised more than an eyebrow when Nigel (and the judges) commented on the male/male ballroom dancers, and SYTYCD's intro and presentation of it.  I've been a professional dancer for most of my life and have seen many many strong male dancers in duet, in ballets and dance companies. When those guys on the show got up there in their ridiculous ballroom drag (let's face it, ballroom costumes are, for the most part, over-the-top and outrageous and...ridiculous) -- I said aloud to my TV, "I hope they're fantastic!".  But then they were NOT.  They weren't horrible, though they should never have done that lift unless they were absolutely certain they could pull it off without falling!!  They were not great.  And when they got through to the choreography round, I bet they weren't much better.  I love the show becuse it searches for great dancers.

It would have been TREMENDOUS if a male/male couple got up (in sensible wardrobe) and did a flawlessly executed, intricately choreographed, sensual ballroom dance, and even switched leader/follower!!  That would have been something. That would have been ground-breaking on SYTYCD.  It would have been stunning if the amazing Blake (from Season 1) and Travis (from Season 2) did a romantic pas de deux. Then the comments on the dancing would have had to be appropriately glowing, though I suspect Nigel still would've had a problem.

Nigel's comments on this couple were appalling.  It was somewhat astounding that none of the judges seemed to ever have seen two men dancing together.  He said they alienated a lot of the audience. Who does he think the audience IS??!  I've watched the show, from the start, with my colleagues and students and gay friends.  Who does he think the majority of professional male dancers are??  The audience was undoubtedly more alienated by his comments.  Still, if there's one thing I do agree with him on, it's that I prefer male dancers use their given physicality and dance like men.  I've seen way too many productions of "West Side Story" where the gang members are laughably effeminate.  But in every case, they should be true to the choreography and style.  I don't care if they're doing ballet or jazz or hip-hop or flamenco or baton twirling for that matter.  I only care that they're doing it WELL.  And those guys were just okay... and then they fell down.

I'll continue to watch the show, and it makes me cry as often as it makes me cringe. I love it when it gets to the final 20 and we get to see really good dancers dancing with other really good dancers (as opposed to dancers dancing with non-dancing stars... which I will not watch).  It's not a perfect show.  But I find it entertaining.  And I'll still want to slap Nigel at least once or twice every episode.

And thank you to whoever posted the YouTube link.  Here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZnkyjqaBo&feature=related

Robert Sean Leonard and Christian Bale tripping the light fantastic.  It starts around the 7:20 mark. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU61EFPsA2Q

 

Here is another example of 2 men dancing who are just fantastic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKC3RziqvuA&feature=related

Sorry if someone already posted this (checked through the links and didn't see it), but here's a video of my all-time favorite SYTYCD dancer, Travis, and another crowd favorite, Ivan, dancing together. Granted, it's not ballroom, but it's still an amazing piece imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJkWvXxyXbU