When porn director Chi Chi LaRue spoke out last week for the health of actors in porn videos, some gay men were blunt: who cares about the health of the actors when it gets in the way of my entertainment? Then there are the nasty internet gossip mongers at Gawker, Defamer, and Perez Hilton...who all seem to be gay men. This got Two Gay Guys (aka Brent and Michael) thinking: what makes some gay men so damn mean?
Aww, Brent and Michael....
I've been wondering exactly the same thing. I wish I had you guys for neighbours. (blows a kiss)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
hmmm
interesting stuff.
porn stars deserve HIV, eh? well, wow...that's a hell of a blunt ass opinion. i wanna know WHY some feel that way. because they have sex for a living? sure, it's not a "decent" way of making a living, but at the same time, these people are HUMAN beings. they know what they are doing and i am damn sure they know the risks. i am also pretty sure they have feelings and emotions and families to support. the medications and treatments have gotten so much better that even people with HIV live longer and can still be healthy, despite having it. (if that makes sense....)
so, to wish HIV on them, much less anyone is very lame in my opinion.
if people *truly* wanna wish bad things on someone - - hello, CHILD porn and the people behind THAT. i won't even go into what i would love to happen to those sick freaks. or people who torture animals. or, um....people who stick babies in freaking microwaves. must i go on?
come on now. *sigh*
Good questions
Great questions guys.
Wish I had some answers.
Michael, am in agreement with you in wondering about this meaness being a reaction to the pain of childhood.
Do you have link to the earlier Vlog that you mention ? Would like to see that one.
Here is the link to our earlier vlog!
Guys, guys, guys...
That was so sweet. Unfortunately a trifle unrealistic. Gay men,by and large, are motivated by self-gratification not by love.
Of course, in making this comment I am open (as I so often am) to accusations of being a "self-hating homo". I get that a lot.
But honestly, I don't see a lot of "love" amongst gay men. I see a lot of superficial relationships driven by fulfillment of needs for sex, entertainment or material benefit. As a community we are united by political necessity, but as indiviuals we are often quite hostile towards each other. We heap scorn upon the guy that doesn't have the great face, perfect body or huge c*ck. We are frequently rude, contemptuous and condescending.
Basically, when standing in a room full of gay men I feel like I'm in a high school cafeteria, with the same level of attitude and immaturity.
Now, it can be argued (and has been) that this is because we often had delayed progress towards maturity due to being gay and having a more difficult path to adulthood than straights. What I personally believe is that our experiences amplify our competitive instincts and also increase our need to bolster our own self-esteem by denigrating others. Perez Hilton and his ilk are just more visible examples of this.
I can't claim to be blameless here. On an average day I absolutely despise the way we are and how our culture works.
Gay men hating themselves
Brent and Michael, I am so pleased to know that there are other gay people who have noticed how hateful some gay men really are, or have become. As all gay people should already know we live in a world with enough hate thrown at us, we don't need to perpetuate it. I believe that the next time you see someone being a bitchy queen towards anyone, just tell them to shut the #$%@ up. I am not advocating violence towards them but someone needs to let them know that what they are saying is not to be tolerated by anyone. I belive that they have so much hate towards themselves that it just gets pushed off onto others. These people need help and understanding. But first they need to take the tiara off, and join the rest of the world. By the way Liz's comment about porn stars not having a "decent" living is so off the mark. If that is what they choose to do to make a living , and are not hurting another person, no one else has to support them, then it is a decent living for them, maybe not her choice of preference, but let's not condemn someone else's choices. Just a few thoughts, Thanks
hi there tim....
i usually suck at wording things, so lemme try again.....what i was trying to get at was there are those who think porn stars (and btw, i have no issues with them, because as you said....they're not hurting anyone else....) just aren't decent people in general.
some think they're gross, drug addicts, freaks, etc....and they think making a living off porn is just gross and indecent or whatever. basically, some feel it's a job that does nothing for society, but instead feeds to the perversion of people. i know people who feel this way.
i wasn't condemning anyone. hopefully i made more sense the second time around. eh
The wording is nicer but I'm still not sure about the content.
Liz, I wasn't trying to make you sound bad, or awful, or intolerant. But still some of your comments were strong and angry. You did say that you agree, or implied that it was not a descent occupation and even in the rest of your article about child molesters, and such, you imply it is ok to wish bad things to happen to them, and it is not ok to wish that either. You have to learn to forgive people who do wrong things, I don't condone any of those things, but you have to forgive. I have a question for you , do you believe in the death penalty? I don't , no matter what the situation. Nor would I wish any other harm on anyone else , no matter the circumstances. Your comments in the first paragraph imply that you would wish harm on other people under certain circumstances, ones that you deem fit. And that is no better than the people who wish aids, or death of any kind on any group of people, including gays.
Just a few more comments. I'm really not trying to make you sound bad, but only trying to get you to think.
.......
"You have to learn to forgive people who do wrong things, I don't condone any of those things, but you have to forgive."
^ you're obviously stronger than i am. i honestly can't understand how people could forgive certain acts of evil. that's just me though.
as for the death penalty - - no, i don't believe in it. i don't see what that solves. "oh, let's kill them. that will teach them and others" *thinks* wait, we still hear sick crap everyday. plan B anyone? *shrug*
i guess my ultra-sensitivity has shown through. as for the remarks about making a decent living...i obviously worded it wrong....i try very hard to see things from different points of views....but whatever, i tried. thanks for the feedback.
Tim and Liz.
Toy both have valid points.
I was a victim of a pedophile myself , and as a resul, even at my late stage in life, I am undergoing trearapy for it, I would personally kill the bastard if I could find him.
However, a lot of gay's think they are better than the porn stars or the prostitutes without knowing how they became that way.
Most of them were trhow away children whose parents couldn't handle the fact that their child was gay. They were on the street starving, and when offered a way to make money to live they took it. There are some who chose that way, and they make good money, so who are we to say they are wrong? most young gay men get laid more often than porn stars do anyway.
My point is that noone should judge another without walking a mile in his or her shoes. and not even then. God is the ultimate judge. But gay men are bitchy, they talk loudly about the less attractive or older men in the gay bars, like we can't her them, but they know we can and don't care. It has bee That way since I was young and attractive myself. Everyone considered me a snob because I wouldn't get into one of those clicks that was alway's running the others down. My friends were mostly the unpopular people.
Dennis
Michael and Brent I agree
Michael and Brent I agree with you. I came to the conclusion that just like bullies were likely bullied before, some frustrated gays teased at school will take their revenge on others. Those types of person pass judgment on everyone(gay or straight, male or female). We hear a lot of gay bitching about gays because let's be honest, their world is likely to revolve around the gay lifestyle full of gay people(basically living in this gay bubble). The reason why they are so loud about their opinions may be due to the fact that when hiding their sexuality back then, they weren't able to express themselves 100%, always having to watch what they said. Now that they are out and pround, they don't filter what they say and certainly won't supress what they want to say like in their childhood.
Personally, I consider myself to be a sane, non-mean gay and that may be why I don't feel like I belong to the gay scene. My orientation is only a part of me(an important one though) and I feel like this gay scene is all about being gay.
You might be a bitchy gay queen and not even know it
This is an excellent point
I said something catty in that last video blog (now deleted for technical reasons) about someone in one of the music videos. It wasn't until it was all edited and posted that I thought, "Wait, that person might see this. Why did I say something mean?"
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com
"You can die with your secret"
afhickman
"It takes a village (to make Village People)"
Great commentary, Two Gay Guys! I think it might be an instance of Killdeer (see Tom Spanbauer's The Man Who Fell in Love with the Moon). In order to hide in plain sight, we use the old bait and switch: directing everyone's attention to a preferred object of derision. Most of us get pretty good at it. Have you ever noticed how young gays are capable of the most withering comments about their peers? I have really had to school myself in recent years not to do the reflexive thing and just lambaste the hell out of everyone that I consider to be my mental inferior (this is espcially hard in an election year). But, at 50-something, I'm learning. The problem with being a bitch is that it's so alienating. Chris may get the best lines in "The Ritz," but at the end of the play, he's alone (if you can be alone in a bathhouse). The bottom line is, words hurt, and I don't think any of us really want to hurt anyone. Killdeer is a survival mechanism that we learn as children; we should outgrow it as adults.
Nice discussion here...
And I wish we as a community had more venues for such discussions. The internet makes communication very easy, but it's also easy to say things and then not be really accountable for what you've said. I suspect that this particular function of the internet - anonymity - was responsible for a lot of those nasty comments on the Chi Chi LaRue post. It's one of the things that keeps me from even reading most comments on my favorite blogs, or even on Amazon or IMDB; I just tend not to trust that the people leaving comments are acting out of honesty. I suppose it says something that I often DO read the comments on AfterElton - I find the discussions here intellectually honest and respectful.
I also wanted to say that I feel uncomfortable and mostly sad when others say that they feel the gay community is shallow, superficial, etc. Sure, some aspects of it are - some people certainly are. But no, not nearly ALL gay people are. My bf and I just had our annual Groundhog Day party, an institution in our lives for 18 years now, and our guests from all areas of our lives always comment that we have the nicest friends. And I'd have to agree. Some of these friends are the shy guys who feel they don't "measure up" to, say, a muscly a-list gym guy - they've told us so - and who somehow have come to expect attitude and rejection from all gay men because of their shyness or their negative experience with some bad apples. But our party reminds me every year that we've cultivated friendships - both deep ones, and casual ones - with kind people from all letters of the alphabet list. It's the kindness that matters. And it's there - you just need to find it, be open to it.
Is that a rant? I guess it touches a nerve. :)
Lots of things do
Personally I live in a community with a large gay population and truthfully the cultural dynamics are not pretty. The key metric is not how good of a friend you are, but how many people you can claim to be "friends" with. Being bitchy is virtue, because it generates laughs at parties. And it's every man for himself.
It's ugly and in recent years I really have come to understand why, in desperation, some gay people flee into the clutches of "ex-gay" groups that promise to "cure" them and usher them into "normal" society.
I don't agree that our movement is based on "love". We're much too competitive and self-centered for that as an overall group. We're obsessed with image and sex. And too many gay guys are all too superficial in their friendships.
While I agree that exceptions exist, I wouldn't consider them the majority, or even the norm, by any means.
That is a pretty
grim picture you are painting, ever thought of moving? Fortunately Toronto does not seem as bad as your city, I have met a lot of great gay guys, many of them in couples. Mind you I limit my interaction with the gay world to sports organizations, or a small circle of friends, I don't spend much time in bars. That will change in the spring when I start doing volunteer work going to bars and bathhouses, perhaps I will get an eye-opener then.
I also find gays now coming out (16-22) are more comfortable with themselves and seem to have a lot less attitude and self-hatred. Does anyone else sense this?
Cheers
JBE
Doesn't count
You're Canadians. Your entire country has a higher overall courtesy level than the U.S.
I'll be the first to admit, having been to numerous other countries, that a lot of the toxicity of gay male culture here in the U.S. is an amplified manifestation of sociological issues that Americans in general have. We are acquisitive and very concerned with perception over substance. Just look at the reality TV shows we've unleashed on the world, Darwinian popularity contests based on contestants eliminating each other through plotting and scheming, or else shows like American Idol where the entertainment is watching people get insulted.
In many European countries for example it's considered better to have a small number of very close friends, whereas here in the U.S. it's generally considered to be better to have a larger number of friends, even if you aren't really that close to them all. Politeness is valued more highly, and so strutting around projecting attitude is seen as being in poor taste unless one can claim to be a genuine celebrity. My God, I went clubbing in Stockholm one time and despite the fact that 80% of the men in the bars looked like Abercrombie models they were friendly and showed no traces of the attitude that guys nowhere near as good-looking habitually throw around here in the States.
As for younger gays, I think that the theory about gays suffering deferred adolesence are somewhat true, and the fact that a lot of gay kids are coming to terms with their sexuality at younger ages is off-setting some of the issues of earlier generations. However, they are badly infected by American youth-oriented consumer culture and I find that a shocking number of young gay guys consider men in their 30's to be "old". This is a sharp contrast to when I was their age back in the 90's and we thought nothing of socializing with or dating men in their 40's and even 50's.
I guess times change as they always do, in line with the overall culture.
...
Just a note: We got those nasty reality shows from other countries. Survivor was the spark that lit the fire, and that was an import. Big Brother too. The list goes on.
Bad behavior knows no cultural or geographic boundaries, and I really wish you'd chill out with the broad-stroking of the American gay community in such a disparing way.
Oh, and do you remember coming out at 18 and thinking guys over 30 were old? I do, and that was in the 80's. It's nothing new and it'll be around until they start selling Botox at CVS for five dollars.
To be truthful
Actually, I didn't come out until I was 21, so I can't make any comments about my views at 18 since at that point I wasn't even acknowledging my attraction to men. However, after coming out and throughout my 20's I thought nothing of dating or even just sleeping with much older guys. As I recall the record was 52 years-old.
At 35 I still think a lot of guys in their 40's and older are as hot as I thought they were when I was 21. I also recall that I wasn't unique or special in that at the time as most of my age peers shared the same attitude at the time. But I see that a lot less now. Now I overhear (not being deaf at my ripe old age) a lot of young guys complaining about all the "old" (i.e. over 30) guys daring to show our aged mugs in clubs.
While we didn't invent reality TV we did turn it into the mass phenomenon that it is. And we have in fact made it a lot more hostile, in keeping with our social values. Traveling outside the U.S. to the extent that I have it has been possible for me to really get a feel for that. Maybe more so because I travel for business and go out on my free time randomly, rather than with organized tour expeditions tailored to provide a familiar experience.
It wasn't until I started doing so that I really came to understand how poisoned our national discourse has become and also how hostile our culture really is. We mistake parties for friendships, bitchiness for humor and lust for love. Just being united in political activism, having parades and going to circuit parties doesn't make us a community based on "love". It just makes us a consumer demographic.
You said that you were not trying to be witchy
Theroux, your commentary of a week ago regarding the C. Kressley interview indicates that you are a bright guy. I agree that “effemiphobia” is alive and kicking the gay community and find it sad that he gets called a stereotype for being himself or because of his chosen profession. What in heavens happened in the past week to the guy who wrote those empathetic posts? I feel that you’ve taken people to task based on flawed assumptions that disregard this site’s focus and how it tackles different subjects.
Since AfterElton.com focuses on “news, reviews & commentary on gay and bisexual men in entertainment and the media,” topics tend to be gay-centric, irrespectively of whether they may also happen to apply to other groups of people. So when Two Gay Guys address “meanness,” it’s not intended to make sweeping statements applicable to all gay men, or to exclude straight men/women/children. Niche magazines and many websites thrive as the result of people responding favorably to a product made by and for them and this is one of them.
You correctly point out here bitchiness is not exclusive to gay men, but that is the focus here. Are some gay men mean? I know I can be. What you call infighting that you think accomplishes nothing, others, including myself, categorize as meaningful food-for–thought dialogue. Just because Pscionycx may not know that many of the trashy reality shows that we watch did not originate from the US, does not take away from the fact that he has valid points to make about the cultural differences that he has witnessed first-hand. It seems way too easy to say that “bad behavior knows no cultural or geographic boundaries” as to me, it that takes us way from focusing on the harm that we may be causing on our community without even knowing it.
You ask him to stop broad-stroking the American gay community and in my opinion dismiss his valid comments of ageism. We can do better, and simply saying that we may be just as bad as others, does not elevate us. In my view, responses of that nature only hinder the flow that this forum can generate, as does your response to Michael’s coverage of Survivor, along with knee-jerk accusations about CBS. http://www.afterelton.com/blog/michaeljensen/survivor-micronesia-chet-welch-homosexual-kathy#comment-33435
Even I got some of your misdirected disdain via my posting of a New York Times article which focused on how all the major designers are now using rail thin models in their runway shows. I simply asked whether the new ideal, reflected by a guy who is 6 feet tall and weighs 145 pounds, may have a negative impact on how gay men view themselves/one another. Since we tend to follow/jump on trends faster than our straight counterparts, I thought that was a question worth posing. http://www.afterelton.com/node/13635#comment-33439
While you correctly say that everything is not a gay issue, you again failed to see that AE is all about gay men. Doing so does not categorize anything as exclusively gay. Instead of possibly silencing valid voices or ranting about how a show should not be even blogged/linked to this site, you may benefit from watching the clip again.
Have you checked to see whether past AE media coverage of things that you don’t like is coming at the expense of things that you do like? If you had, you'd see that such may not be the case. While I can’t take any credit for it, at last count, there were 262 site specific Henry Rollins results and 686 for IFC. For those who have not read your Survivor post, these are examples of what you'd like to see instead of some of the stuff on hand. I also happen to like both HR and IFC, but there is room for both and even more. You seem to want to want to do good stuff, so why not contribute to what is already here? Hopefully others will respond with a modicum of respect. Hitting and and running is not nice and maybe a little mean.
...
Just a note: We got those nasty reality shows from other countries. Survivor was the spark that lit the fire, and that was an import. UK Idol. Big Brother too. The list goes on.
Bad behavior knows no cultural or geographic boundaries, and I really wish you'd chill out with the broad-stroking of the American gay community in such a disparing way.
Oh, and do you remember coming out at 18 and thinking guys over 30 were old? I do, and that was in the 80's. It's nothing new and it'll be around until they start selling Botox at CVS for five dollars.
Psionycx you make some
interesting points, I will not comment on Americans, I am no expert on them and I don't want to offend people by saying something ignorant. I do find though that there are still a surprising number of young gays that find older gay men attractive. On RealJock you will see a signficant number of guys between the ages of 18 and 25 who are looking for guys between 35 and 45, a big surprise to me since I was always one of those guys that find men around his own age "hot" (I am still like that).
I agree that a lot of young gays are consumed by consumer culture, but I believe that applies to young people generally. Like Theroux I feel that it is dangerous to make statements about gays that makes us seem worse then we actually are. I look at heteros and find many of the same behaviours. I guess you could say I think it is a human problem not an issue with a person's sexual orientation.
In conclusion, considering all that gays go through in life it is amazing how well-adjusted we are generally speaking, and how f**ked-up many straights are considering their advantages. Is it because we have had to try harder for self-acceptance? Perhaps, being gay is not as easy as it should be, we all have to work hard at being the best people we can. Are there things about the gay culture I would like to see improved? Absolutely, we don't take HIV seriously enough, there is too much drug use, not enough volunteering, too much self-indulgence at times, but overall I think we are coping remarkably well.
Cheers
JBE
I'm not saying...
...that straight society isn't corrupted by most of the same problems that we have in the gay community, especially consumerism, ageism and a decline in general courtesy.
However, I was issuing a rebuttal to Brent and Michael's statement that our movement is "based on love", something I do not consider to be true. Our movement is based on a common focus on civil rights and we share a loose connection to each other driven by that common need.
But this doesn't mean that gays are automatically good to one another. To be honest, pound for pound, I think that gays actually make slightly less reliable friends than straights. I simply prefer gay friends because I can relate to them better. But I wouldn't consider them more loyal, honest or dependable. The High School analogy still holds in my experience popularity is more important than intimacy.
There's also a fast-growing divide within the community between partnered gays and single gays. This is the next big social divide within our already fractured ranks.
Then again, to a certain extent I think that the entire notion that a "gay community" really exists is something of a myth. We are a group of people with a common attribute, drawn together through a socio-political need. In this regard we are like blacks or Jews or other minority groups. We have some general tendencies as do other groups towards certain types of expression, but these are not absolutes nor are they exclusive.
However, in our case bitchiness has been selected as virtue and is widely considered a sign of being "cool", at least in U.S. gay culture. Given our deep hooks into entertainment I can't disprove arguments that we helped spread it throughout larger society. It's like Queer Eye, where the first half-hour of the show generally involved the Fab Five insulting the heck out of their victim for the episode.
I concur that
the gay movement was not based on love but on a fight for civil rights. I honestly have never thought about whether my gay friends are more or less reliable than my straight friends, mind you the latter group is mainly at work.
As for the gay community I feel it really depends on the location. Some cities seem to have more cohesive communities than others. I agree though that I am a bit disappointed in the lack of community in the gay community. It seems to be sub-divided into the "A list" gays who go to the circuit parties, the gays that are in relationships, the gays that are single and not that attractive, but are trying to find someone and feeling depressed about it etc..
I also agree that there is an invisible barrier between couples and singles, however I believe that has always been there it is just getting more pronounced, especially with the fight for gay marriage. I feel that there is some underlying pressure for my partner and I to make friends only with other gay couples. That is obviously something that is impossible, one cannot dictate who wants as a friend if emotions play a role.
Finally the gays that seem to take front and centre on TV seem to be the more stereotypical ones and in some cases are "bitchy" in attitude. I am not sure if that is a function of them being gay and wanting a lot of attention (think Chris Crocker) or simply the state of TV today, where the greater the shock value supposedly the greater the entertainment value. I often see the same thing in the music industry where skill plays second fiddle to sleaze and slander.
Cheers
JBE
ramblings...
I, for one, am terrified of becoming "that guy" - but I think that we're more aware of it because it's in our demographic. I'm sure there are businesswomen who think that people think all businesswomen are stone-cold bitches because of the high-powered ones who sometimes appear that way - in their discussion groups they talk about how that's their image and there are, I'm sure, some incredibly intelligent football players somewhere who are concerned about their image as dumb jocks and talk about that.
Why don't we focus on the good folks at the HRC, or GMHC, or hell, even the folks who work here at AfterElton or Logo - why don't we say things like "I'm so glad that this is the image that the world can get of us if they look" - I know it's hard - today I went to another blog (towleroad) and was instantly upset by the first two or three entries showing details of horrible homophobic activity happening across the world.
There is no excuse for Perez Hilton - he plays up the bitchy gay queen because that is what all the college girls who go there WANT! Movies and TV seem to have decided that we no longer die tragically of AIDS, we now come in with the zinger and a swish! And people eat it up...which is great until you run into a gay guy with no sense of humor but an incredible sense of justice. You don't know what to do with him - hell, what would Julia Roberts do? Hmmm...
I know that I have a caustic wit and I try to keep it in check - I hear some of the things I say and, even as I'm laughing, I'm thinking...wow, that wasn't too nice. It's usually about celebrities or politicians - which somehow makes it "not about real people" but even as I say that to myself I know it's a lie because somewhere they are actually actually living and may read it and it could hurt their feelings...
Sorry, I'm just rambling...going through my 1st day after bad break-up blues all over your website. I'm gonna go put on some Jewel and write poetry or something :)
www.actuallyactuallyjason.blogspot.com
Did gays invent bitchy?
For every bitchy/snarky queer, you've got how many bitch/snarky straight people? Is it at all accurate to ascribe these undesireable traits as some kind of gay phenomena? The type of catty judgemental behavior that has been described here is just as prevelant amongst straight men; those guys just go about it differently (the straight equivalent of "bitchy queen" is the "effin' a-hole".) My partner and I have been part of a predominantly straight social-circle for years now, and let me tell you, some of these straight guys' viciousness would put the Perez Hiltons to shame. And there's plenty of bitchy blogs written by straight folks too, is that also a phenomena worthy of discussion?
Marginalized people just have this need to be perfect, or to be seen as perfect. In truth, they're people with the same flaws and vices as everybody else. I just feel like this type of in-fighting and eating-your-own accomplishes nothing.
I wouldn't call green grass winter
Thankfully I have the "pleasure" with working with quite a few bitchy people (or atleast people much more bitchy than me) and I am constantly listening to all of it and I think I have come to a realization.
People are so bitchy because everyone around them is listening! How many people go and see Parez Hilton's (or however you spell it) blog? Why do we bother listening? Because when they started, they talked on things that we all wanna bitch about but won't. But after a while, they dry up. And for some weird reason we keep listening.
Michael & Brent, keep mixing ones like this in your weekly (or however often) vlogs and you should do well! good luck!
Excellent Video Blog guys
there was a similar forum topic on RealJock, so I guess it is as much an issue now as it was when I came out in 1986. Although some gays can be "bitchy" or mean, many are not and I think we need to remember that. I have met many people in the gay community who are respectful of others feelings. Unfortunately in this celebrity obsessed society loud obnoxious people get noticed. Gay people who want to be noticed and have self-esteem issues mimic the Perez Hilton's of the world. I stay away from those people as much as possible. Furthermore, I have met many straight guys that can be pretty obnoxious although I would not call them "bitchy" I would call them "jerks".
I find gays can treat other gays badly not just because of self-esteem issues, but also in the pursuit of sex men generally can behave badly (ask women). Finally men have not been raised to interact with other men in a tender, sensitive and loving fashion. We were raised to be competitive with each other. We need to learn new skills when we start out in the gay world and begin dating and making friends.
In terms of the comments of people regarding porn stars that is pretty horrible if totally accurate, nobody "deserves" to get HIV. That being said I also wonder what is going through the mind of someone who knowingly practices unsafe sex. I know there are some gay people out there that do not believe HIV causes AIDS, a belief that I find mind-boggling (up there with believing evolution is a myth, and the holocaust never happened).
Finally your link of gay people in the fashion industry and how women are portrayed was fascinating, I never made that link before, probably because I do not follow the industry.
Cheers
JBE
Bitchy
Michael and Brent I agree. Is sad, but the bullied grows up to be the bully. Low self-esteem is at the root of all this bitchiness. When I first came out I thought all gay man behave like superficial bitchy boys. TG they don't, but it is so pervasive in our community that I find it hard to find a well adjusted, sane gayman to date!. but I can be mad about it, its call survival growing up. But once we come into our own, shouldn't we outgrow this kind of behaviors?
Thank you so much for posting this!
You guys have no idea how long I've asked this question myself.
When I first came out about four years ago, it was an exciting and pulsating experience. But one of the things that really surprised me was the catty nature of so many gay men I met at the time. The eliticism, outright disgust towards one another ... I never really understood it. I don't understand it now and usually avoid it. Worse, things like this only divide the gay community and thwart it from focusing on more important issues, like equal rights or HIV/AIDS prevention. Gossip queens like Perez Hilton are seen as revolutionaries of our generation, while people forget about the real trailblazers like Harvey Milk and Randy Shilts.
Thank you for being a wonderful example to the gay community, Michael and Brent. Your video gave me hope and made me happy!
You've obviously never
You've obviously never worked with a lot of women because they can out bitch any gay man I've ever met, and they can be nastier with it as well. I have to disagree with with the idea that gay men are only interested in relationships for material gain, everyone wants to be loved don't they? I know plenty of gay men who are in love and have been for some time, you can't lump everyone who is gay in the same box labelled "bitch", some are, some aren't.
Thanks for the honesty
I commend and agree with you both regarding the unfortunate decline of gay male banter. Lately it seems as if many are reverting to a "Boys In The Band" mentality, which once again indicates a lack of self-esteem or the exact opposite. Part of the current decline of the 'gay bar' has its root causes in this very issue.
I've worked an LGBT organization and have seen this thinly veiled racism and classism rear its ugly head on more than one occasion, and this is from people that are supposed to be helping our own communities!!! I'm seriously worried that many are now living to a stereotype of self-destruction, and in doing so, painting us all with a negative impression. If the way many act towards others in our community and beyond continues we will all resign ourselves to yet another footnote in historical persecution. It's time to rise above the 'least common denominator' and show that our community is one that does love and care for each other.
Let's take care here...
Let's take care in who exactly we're condemning. Something tells me it's the bitchy gay queens who are among the first to bash back. I have this feeling that Marsha P. Johnson wasn't much of a wallflower.
Love,
Freedom, and from who we got it
I'm really encouraged....
...by the posts above from Keith, artias, JBE, and others. It's great to see thoughtfulness and perspective like that from anyone, but especially from younger gay men.
I stand by my earlier post, which was trying to say that perspective has a lot to do with what we see and how we interact (or not) with other gay people or our community, in general. I have plenty - too many - friends who see only the bad in the gay community, and they focus on that and won't let it go or even try new experiences with new people. I am pretty sure that they (and I'm ONLY talking about my friends, the people I know - not anyone else!) are coming from a place of rejection, poor self-esteem, and fear.
So yeah, the bitchy gay men are definitely out there, as are the gay racists, misogynists, shallow gays, self-hating gays... but that's not everyone. I also agree with Psionycx's post that the pursuit of sex brings out some bad behavior in gay men - you need only look at intenret 'dating' sites to see that in spades. But I disagree with him that it's the majority of us. And then there's the complex thought, also mentioned above, that it's not always ONE bitchy person, or ONE rude crass person in search of sex, but maybe we all have bits of these traits inside us that surafce from time to time, in certain situations or with certain people (as Brent mentioned above, about his earlier deleted post). Actually, if that's the case, then everyone here can make a difference by paying attention to ourselves first, calling ourselves on it, and maybe bringing this discussion to our friends.
Great blog post, guys, and excellent discussion. I really appreciate it.
A few things
Sorry to hear that some of you have had such negative experiences with bitchy gay men. I've had the opposite experience in my gay lifetime: The bitchy queens were rare and few, usually identified rather quickly, and widely avoided. And I've lived in large cities and smaller cities, and did the whole club thing into my 30's. And I can honestly say that the bitchy queens were the exception, and most definitely not the rule. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I don't think so. It's less likely that all of these generalizations are true, and more likely that some of you have made the mistake of hanging around the wrong people, or the wrong places. It happens.
I agree theroux
I have not had that many bad experiences. I do find that gay people have very high expectations when they come out on how other gays will treat them and when some are not very nice they react very negatively. Frankly there are obnoxious and mean people in society regardless of age, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, religion, and every other criteria you can think of. Sometimes we can be too hard on ourselves and don't draw parallels with the straight community (see my comment above).
Cheers
JBE
I don't disagree with this
All my gay friends are really some of the nicest people I've ever met (as are my straight male freinds, in fact). I've known a few bitchy gay queens, but yeah, they're usually bitter and unhappy, so they attract bitter and unhappy people (coloring their view of the world at the gay community in general).
But this is why I HATE HATE HATE that being a bitchy gay queen seems to propel you to great heights on the internet or on television. Perez Hilton should be ostracized for being such a horrible human being, not given a show on Bravo.
Read my books! Explore "Brent's Brain" at http://www.brenthartinger.com
That is as much a
reflection of today's entertainment industry as anything. It seems the more obnoxious you are the more "colourful" you are considered and the more reaction you will get. It is not just in the entertainment industry but also in the news and political commentary field. Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter etc.. I long for the good old days of listening to Eric Sevareid's commentary on the CBS evening news with Walter Cronkite. Intelligent, respectful and thought-provoking. Oh I just realized something you had to think when listening to him, that would never go over well today!
I think I will stick to the CBC and the BBC and passover the USA networks. Sorry guys.
Cheers
JBE
Agreed...
I HATE HATE HATE that being a bitchy gay queen seems to propel you to great heights on the internet or on television.
..but that's probably because, media-wise, gays are still the court-jesters of pop culture (not unlike J.J. on Good Times, et al.) Behind every bitch queen who has made it big in the media, there's some straight, that thought it would be funny, or cool, and it would translate into exposure. I defy anyone to try to convince me that Ross the intern got that job off of some kind of journalistic merit. It's unfortunate, but he and the Carson Kressley's will go down as the Uncle Tom's in gay history. And that's sad, because these are just queers who tried to make a buck and gain the acceptance they were for so long denied.
Ross the Intern and Carson Kressley are NOT bitchy queens
By the definition of "bitchy queens" that seems to prevail in the current discussion, neither Ross nor Carson qualify. Every time I've seen them on tv, they've exhibited nothing but good humour and enthusiasm for the persons they're with.
Ross and Carson got where they are because they're personable, witty, and have a self-deprecating humour that many people appreciate. Please don't lump them into the category of the mean-spirited bitchy queen as exmplified by Perez Hilton, just because you dislike them for being effeminate and flamboyantly over-the-top.
For the record, I feel that comparing Ross or Carson to the inaccurate negative perception of the Uncle Tom lterary character is completely unfounded. The label "Uncle Tom" is often used as a negative stereotype of a subservient black man too eager to please white folks. By the same token, you're accusing Ross and Carson of doing the same to please straight people when in fact, they're simply being true to themselves. If they were to hide their real personalities under less flamboyant, more "straight-acting" facades, I would deem those actions to be taking on a subservient role to the straight majority.
And...
JBE SAID:I do find that gay people have very high expectations when they come out on how other gays will treat them and when some are not very nice they react very negatively.
Good point. After enduring all kinds of bullsh*t in high school, I thought coming out was going to be one giant love parade. Instead, I found that all kinds of bias existed, the same kinds you find in all cultures: socio-economic, education, etc. It just seems like too many young gays are quick to blame their bad experiences on the gay community as a whole, and that's because straight people brainwashed them into thinking that; "It's bad! It's nothing but heartache!" Yeah, it might be, so long as we swallow your bait.
bitchy is just another word for insecure...
...I don't support the vicious nature of the attacks on Chi Chi regarding his stance on porn actors health, but at the same time I don't agree with him about the role bareback porn plays in hiv infection rates. Chi Chi talks a big game when it comes to this subject its just talk, I personally feel like his movies play a much more insidious part in whether or not gay men use condoms and it is the same underlying issue that is the root of the bitchy queen behavior that this vlog addresses. The problem is that of insecurity and engendering feelings of inferiority in the gay community.
Chi Chi's movies (and most media) are filled with buffed up, waxed, tanned stud guys with huge dicks who are covered in make-up, placed under perfectly lighting and then airbrushed in post production. In other words, they're not real, yet they are presented to be what gay men should strive for as perfection and the sterile, fake-passioned, scentless sex they have is presented as if it were what real sex is like. When was the last time you actually saw someone put a condom on or take one off in a porn movie? You never see that! They just magically appear on the actor's dick right before they're needed. This kind of fantasy idealization is the most damaging thing that can happen on the screen. People don't use condoms because they are acting from a place of insecurity and fear, not just because they want a better orgasm. Drug and alcohol use is also a strong cofactor because of the escape they offer and the way they lessen inhabitions.
Its not just in porn either. Television, film and print media all shove fake perfection down our throats and the consequences are that gay men who have grown up feeling like they are second best are thrust into a gay community that worships perfection and reviles normality. Upon arriving in that world they now find that they're still second best or third or fourth. I always say that I don't buy magazines like Instinct or Genre because I can feel shitty about myself for free. Its something that people working with anorexics and bulemics have said for years. In the case of gay men I think the ingrained inferiority that we grown up feeling is reinforced in another way as soon as we enter the gay community. Only now its okay to be gay, its just not okay to be chubby or have skinny arms or a bald head. For many gay kids a bitchy, smart mouth was the only defense they had against the bully's that usually outnumbered them. Its only natural that when they grow up and join the shark infested waters of the gay community they use the only weapons they've ever had.
My question to the community is what are we doing about it? Can we do anything about it? Well, for one thing, porn directors like Chi Chi LaRue can start erotizing condom use instead of lashing out at the lack of its use. Magazines can start showing real people and stop airbrushing abs onto models. We can reclaim the lost members of our own community from the loneliness and self loathing that many deal with every day. We can welcome younger gay people into the community without placing the value of their membership on their youth or relative beauty.
Well said guys.
two gay men