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"Forbidden Love" video clip update: Norma Gay
Today's Forbidden Love (which is actually a combination of two clips from this week) starts out with some filler about Lydia and Sebastian (of the perpetual bad hair day). "Hey, I can smolder too ... see? Back home, Olli is visited by his evil Olli wants to tell the reporter who covered the boxing match what happened to him afterwards, but Christian wants to keep their private lives private. He also thinks it might provoke the other guys at the gym, although he's pretty confident they're not as closed-minded as Axel. Once he gets to the gym, however, he realizes how wrong he was. The other boxers give him the cold shoulder, acting as if he doesn't exist, and when he pulls out his gym towel, it has a very nasty, homophobic message scrawled on it.
Gregor suggests going to a different gym, but Christian won't give them that satisfaction. He confronts them, and is threatened by the scuzziest one (and that's saying a lot!), but refuses to back down. Back home, he explains what happened to Olli and Aunt Charlie, and she begs him to stand down, afraid that things will escalate. Olli and Christian sleep on it, and the next morning, Christian comes to a decision ... he's going to fight for his rights! Well, we were waiting for something to come out of the bashing, and we've got it. Christian has vowed to expose the homophobia he and Olli have endured, and it'll be interesting to see where they go with this. Will going public help open some eyes, or will it just make things more difficult for them (and possibly more dangerous)? You can see the clip after the break, and thanks to The Gays of Daytime and TorridGermanLove for the translations. Submitted by on Fri, 2008-08-15 14:47. |
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My favorite part? Gregor's
My favorite part? Gregor's pained expression during the boxing club scenes. :)
OK, I lied, my favorite part was actually the random insertion of them waking up in bed together, all casual. Are you taking notes, ATWT?
VL, once again fearless
It's nice to see the show confronting the issue of homophobia in the sports world. This is something we discuss a lot in the gay community, but is a topic that barely sees the light of day out in the rest of the world.
This is especially nice because Christian, who is really more bi than gay, isn't just standing up for himself so much as he's standing up for his relationship. He's not backing away from his relationship with Olli even with all the trouble it's causing in the boxing world. He hasn't even once talked about breaking up. Olli likewise isn't willing to let getting bashed cause him to back down either. It's great to see these two guys taking a stand for their love on a soap.
Plus, as we see, they do in fact actually sleep together. Ollian are smacking down ATWT so hard you can hear the Nuke's teeth flying out of their mouths!
Technically he did have his
Technically he did have his little "maybe I shouldn't have come out" moment which Olli thankfully squashed. :) But you are right, he never contemplated breaking up.
Interestingly the storyline has inspired quite a lot of discussion on the German boards about whether the storyline is justified or over the top. With everybody agreeing that there is homophobia in sports and particularly in boxing, but whether it is unrealistic to have them be so uniformly homophobic. (respectively whether it is justified to draw it in an over the top kind of way in the name of soap opera storytelling)
Fuel for debate, always a good thing.
Good to hear it's out there
To me the most logical argument as to the pervasive nature of homophobia in sports is that the near-total absence of out gay athletes proves that the homophobia is there. After all, the manage to reel in thousands of gay athletes for Gay Games, so it's clear that there is no shortage of athletic gay people. But the fact that we have exactly one out gay man and nine out lesbiansat the Olympics right now says something's clearly wrong.
Now, is the story itself over the top? Come on, this is a soap! Pretty much everything Tanja does is over the top!
But it's so nice to see Christian be so firm in refusing to back away from his relationship with Olli even though, being bi, he could do so, get a girlfriend and make the whole problem go away.
Well, if you present the
Well, if you present the problem to staight people they will always look at it form the angle of how many percent are real homophobia and how many percent are just in the heads of the gay athletes.
There is actually a rather excellent documentary on Soccer and Homosexuality in Germany. Where the man in charge of all of German soccer was basically waving his hands saying "Come out, please! We are trying to prove a point and promise to protect you. We are dying to show that we are not this closeminded and that it wouldn't be a problem".
I think what probably scares off many athletes on top of any aggression is what I call the female equation. You know, how they used to say that a woman has to work twice as hard to get the same job or the same salary. A gay athlete would probably have to be twice as good because otherwise any time he fails at anything there would be people who would say that he failed because he was gay. Even if he doesn't fail more or more more mistakes than any straight athlete.
(the documentary also mentioned that I think in 2000 more than half the German female soccer national team constisted of lesbians and they actually applied to go to the gay games as a team and the soccer bosses forbid it; of course the new guy in charge said they changed since then and they now want to actively present themselves as encouraging of anybody who wants to come out)
But there's also the male equation
Actually, especially the male equation, evidenced by there being only one out gay at the Olympics to nine lesbians.
Male athletic culture carries with it very strong gender identity issues for men. Sports is a way of proving and asserting masculinity for many men. Homosexuality is, in traditional thought, the very antithesis of masculinity. So even setting aside the classic fears about gays in the locker room, the much larger issue is the enormous emotional threat many men face at the prospect of losing an athletic contest to a gay man. Since gay men are supposed to be "less-manly" losing to one is the ultimate blow to the ego. This would especially true in a sport like boxing where it is a direct test of stamina and fighting ability.
In addition, you have the issue that there are often anti-gay folks in certain positions, especially within sporting associations, where they are able to impede the careers of known gays. There are a lot of people (at least there are here in America) who can't stand to see gays succeed at anything. Especially very religious people. They believe veyr strongly that a life of hardship is the just punishment homosexuals should face for their "perversion".
The homophobia in Christian's boxing club is not surprising. Especially not if Wolle is such a prominent figure there with his raging homophobia and misogyny. Beyond just disliking gays, a lot of those guys now have to face the fear of fighting Christian. He beat Axel after all. And losing to him would be a massively emasculating thing. Wolle started in on Axel with the insults right away for example.
Many faces of homophobia.
IMO the complaint with the story was even if there is homophobia, it probably wouldn't like this. That it's unrealistic that this many would be this open about it this crassly. For example in a team sport like soccer or basketball where the big thing comes from buying and selling players, I could easily buy that being gay could have a stigma. Not "I'll wait in the parking lot and beat you up" but more of "Yeah, when push comes to shove I'd rather not spend money on this athlete by buying him". [which is impressive since I doubt that whoring around on your wife for example carries any similar stigma]
The question is whether they are actually doing a disservice to the topic by portraying it in such an over the top manner. That if people look at it and don't believe that it is really like *that* then they might just dismiss it altogether and not give the issue any additional thought. There is nothing unrealistic about a supposed key figure in boxing like Wolle being personally creeped out by gay people. There is nothing unrealistic about a guy who gets beaten up by a gay guy freaking out. Just like there is nothing too unrealistic about this type of "I really don't want to get too close to you" discrimination. I think the problem is just that it has been portayed in a too one sided way. That there is barely a word out of Wolle and Axel's mouths that doesn't lead back to a homophobic slur. It just ring true with people. It would benefit the story more if they were portayed as normal at least some of the time. Of if they showed some of the supposedly positive aspects of boxing (Männerfreundschaften, male friendships or group closeness and solidarity within the group;): I think they have done traces of communicating that Wolle is truly good at what he does (and might or might not think as being aggressive including against gays and women being part of what makes him good) though not much. Still this is why I find Wolle to be the better character (also because the actor who portrays him is better than Axel. It's a pity that Wolle is portrayed by a successful German comedian, so it's unlikely that we will see much of him or even see him again). Most homophobes are homophobic as part of their personality, but it's not their main personality. How many people really do wake up in the morning and spend their whole day thinking about how much they hate gay people and want to do something against them (well the Fred Phelps probably does). I fidn the casual and occasional homophobia much more insidious and probably much more widespread
Anyway, I fully think that the heart of the storyline is in the right place, but I don't think that it's very well written (even though we might disagree on what exactly the plot holes are; I still don't find the way C&O react nearly as promblematic as many here do except that I find it rushed that they want to take their story to the press). IMO there is nothing wrong with that. Sometimes bad storylines happen to good couples. Especially since it seems evident that the bad writing here has "normal" reasons (normal bad soap opera writing, the problem of having to juggle many storylines, probably not being experts on boxing either, it always being hard to come up with a storyline for an established couple that doesn't bore the non-fans of the couple too much) rather than it being a question of being held back by homophobia.
Actually, especially the male equation, evidenced by there being only one out gay at the Olympics to nine lesbians.
I don't think anybody is surprised about female homosexuality being more accepted in sports than male homosexuality. You have the reputation of female atheletes even when they are straight, the suggestion that lesbians might be overrepresented in sports anyway, you have the general "lesbian = sexy" [would anybody really object to the idea of lesbian volleyball players even if nobdoy wants to see the female weight lifter whether she is gay or straight], you have female athletes probably not giving a damn whether they get beaten by a straight or lesbian athlete, you have famous role models like Martina Navratilova who showed that it could be done and could be done at the top ranks.
The unfortunate over-the-top-ness
Well, as I said before soap characters and storylines are rarely subtle and generally painted in very broad strokes. Like I said earlier, Tanja's villainy is so excessive that there are no shades of nuance about it, just as an example.
I did wonder about some things though. Wolle's Slavic surname had me wondering if this was a subtle commentary on the rather aggressive homophobia that is quite noticable in neighboring Poland (an ancestral homeland I am not proud of to be quite honest!).
Another thing I wondered about, and did mention on the GoD boards you may recall, was whether there was also a commentary on social class here. I was struck by this when Axel and the neanderthals were making snide comments upon learning that Christian goes to college. Axel strikes me as a rather pathetic character in many ways. So far as we've seen all he's good at is hitting people. He's a thug, pure and simple. Christian pursues boxing as a dream, but he has other things going for him in life. What Axel has beyond boxing is unclear.
It will be interesting to see where this goes. I do agree that it could be written a bit better but I think that a large part of the problem is that in the amount of screentime that they're devoting to it's hard to insert nuance. This is no different than the disappointment many of us felt that we never really saw when Charlie, Lars or anyone other than Judith, Olivia and Gregor found out that Christian and Olli were a couple.
As for sports as a whole. I don't think that a woman feels that her femininity is threatened by losing an athletic contest to a lesbian. But men definitely feel that their masculinity is threatened by losing to a gay man. So I think that drives the very strong desire to keep gay men out of sports, to a larger extent than for women. However, lesbians still often have to deal with male coaches and officials who find the idea of lesbianism as either an insult to manhood or else have religious problems with it. So all around there;s still an issue.
Wolle Grandetsky
Wolle Grandetsky is generally assumed to be a joke on Wolfram (also called Wolle) Grandezka who plays Ansgar of Lahnstein. I have no idea if that means that he is homophobic ;)
I disagree that subtlety is not possible in soaps. There are countless cases where subtletly in storylines was used on soaps and on VL too. That's why I consider this storyline (the boxing homophobia one) to be below average in quality and unless something changes, I don't think that it will ever become a classic to me. The writing just isn't good enough and a true classic storyline (like Leonard and Cecile or Carla and Hanna) requires good writing.
As for Tanja, yes she is not the most subtle thing and that too gets complained about A LOT on the German boards, but:
-) She is a fan favorite who was brought back. It's frequently harder to write a returning villain well with each new return (see James Steinback, see Sheila Carter)
-) She is genuinely funny
-) Like Olivia she occasionally gets put in the position of being the "truth teller" on other characters and storylines
-) She is supposed to love her son genuinely
-) She is played by a competetent actress
-) SPOILER: She'll soon get family in the form of a mother and maybe a brother in the future and her childhood will be explored
Tanja might be very straight up evil, but IMO Wolle and Axel are still in another universe of cardboardness. And like her said, even she get complained around aplenty on the German boards.
As for the eastern european/class staff, I think you are honestly overestimating the VL writers in this case. I really doubt that they care to make a deeper statement about these issues. At the most I would say maybe they suffer from similar stereotypes/perceptions of Eastern European types and IMO the constant insistence to call the homophobic characters stupid (Olli, Christian, Gregor, pretty much anyone) probably speaks more to the German perception that homophobia is only for the unenlightened and can't possibly be taken seriously. You just brush it off as "stupid" or being the product of stupid empty headed people. Which always struck me as a bit unwise and making things too easy for one. Don't underestimate the foe.
The storyline
There's no question the storyline is heavy-handed. I'd like to think the writers are trying to be deep but there is no question they're being a little extreme. Wolle (if only he also looked like Ansgar!) and Axel are definitely stereotypical characters. However, making them so saves screen time because their homophobia doesn't need an explanation. It's expected because they're rather sleazy people.
Ideological homophobia is much more entrenched here in America (I cannot speak to the state of things in Germany) but even so a great many people are homophobic because their local culture is. A lot of homophobes couldn't give a really intelligent argument as to why they hate gays if asked, and would probably end up pointing to some more prominent ideologue if pressured to provide something tangible. This is why religion is such a popular explanation, they don't feel they have to explain it.
The failure to provide an ideological basis for Wolle and Axel's homophobia is a definite shortcoming of the story. It could just be lazy writing, or it could be a desire not to be controversial by pointing fingers at religion. Axel would make an ideal Neo-Nazi (I can easily see him in the WWII era uniform) but that would make him especially controversial I suppose, so that's probably out too.
Hopefully as this storyline progresses it will be fleshed-out more.
VL/ATWT
Hi Lola and Psi! <waves>
Regardless of if VL's plotline can be heavy handed or any other valid points you two make, all I can say is I'm much happier watching VL than any other gay storyline in any other soap.
I mean, for example, ATWT had Ameera and Col. Mayer. VL does not.
Case closed.
:-)
Ameera vs. Boxing
Ironically, I actually see quite a lot of similarities in the Ameera and the boxing storyline, yet they also showcase the difference between ATWT and VL.
Just like the boxing storyline the Ameera storyline was sort of a sophomore storyline, the first major storyline for the characters after they got together (ok, I'm gonna cheat and count the whole paralysis thing among the getting together part for Nuke). Both are/were supposed to be storylines about a couple standing together against a thing rather than the type of drama that genuinely attacks the couple at its core (like a cheating storyline). And at the heart of it, maybe there were even some good intentions with the Ameera storyline (like having the first muslim character on daytime, complete with hijab or Noah and Luke being good little boys who help others).
They had some similar problems, plot holes, characters acting unreasonably (though of course it was more extreme in the case of ATWT), fairly stereotypical evil, etc
The true difference is revealed when you see that unlike Nuke Ollian aren't held back by weird homophobia on top of not so great writing, we see them kiss, we see them in bed together se see them acting halfway naturally in their relationship. All things that make the storyline just so much more likable than ATWT's.
Again, like I said, bad storylines happen to good couples. Criticism of the storyline is not criticism of the couple, and neither is kinda wishing/hoping that the writers could have done better with certain scenes or parts of the storyline.
The other difference between Ollian and Nuke
The thing that sticks out in this Ameera vs Boxing thing is that in the Nuke storyline we really weren't seeing Nuke as a couple. We were seeing them as a potential couple with this wedge (Ameera) driving them apart. Noah was depicted as being perhaps more committed to Ameera than to Luke and it made the whole notion of Nuke as a couple very ambiguous.
Christian and Olli are already a couple and the boxing issue is being presented as a shared adversity for them. In keeping with the theme of "forbidden love" they are very clearly in love, and faced with circumstances challenging their relationship.
That Christian and Olli have been shown making love and are also shown to be sleeping in the same bed nowadays obviously adds to the sense of them being a couple. Luke and Noah have yet to get anywhere near this point and so they don't really feel like as much of a couple despite occasional sappy proclaimations of love.
So of course you're right Lola, it all boils down to writing and presentation, both of which have been better on VL than on ATWT.
quality vs. quantity
I don't think it's about screentime. It's about subtlety. They could have thrown in 5 second scenes about the guys congratulating Chrisitan after a good training in a way that suggests that they are friendly with him, inviting him to join in on the all boxer bar evening and the like and have Christian politely turn them down (or not). Or show Wolle genuinely excited and happy about Christian's progress (IMO the closest they came when Wolle seemed almost wistful when he spoke about the gay boxer he got rid of). See how all those attitudes change when the truth about Christian becomes known. Throw in a scene where Christian pleads with Wolle that he can make the club a lot of money and fame and have Wolle turn him down. Have Olli suggest that rather than talk to the press they should talk to the boxing authorities and then a week later have them get a letter turning down their request to reprimand the box club. IMO the added screentime would be what, 5 minutes maybe? And I would gladly sacrifice those 5 minute at other points in the story, like shorten some of the Wolle and Axel rants or some of Judith's woes and IMO it would do a lot to make the claustrophobia of the situation more believable. As opposed to them just telegraphing the whole situation with just a handful of key scenes rather than telling it as a real story.
Don't get me wrong, they get decent enough numbers of airtime. But to me that is difference between a made story and a side story. You say it would take too much screentime, I say if it was a main story they would gladly offer this screentime. Of course there are practical reasons for why it is a side storyline. Starting with the fact that a realistic boxing storyline probably isn't particularly interesting to people who mostly watch for glitzy aristocrats (though the cliff notes nature of the storyline probably doesn't do much to endear the storyline to others) and probably most realistically having to do with the fact that they already have a lot of main storylines, they are trying to establish Gregor and Rebecca as a major couple, trying to keep Sebastian and Lydia as a valid couple and their real key focus is on putting the wheels in motion to justify making Tanja the new head of the Lahnstein family. Still, even side storylines can be well written. Judith/Constantin gets decent writing aside from her still mooning over other guys. Coco/Christian/Olli was also more of a side story in its days and the writing was still good. Here I think it's a combination of it being a side storyline and it being sort of out of the usual realm of the kind of stories VL usual writes. It seems a bit like they bit off more than they can chew. Again, quite sad considering that it is an interesting topic.
As for ideology, IMO, I don't think it would be necessary in this case. I think "We are manly boxers and we don't want any icky queers among us" is a sufficient characterization in this case. Aside from the fact that neo nazi issues would open a whole new can of worms. And because this is Germany, it could never be just a sidenote to the homophobia storyline, it would invariably have to be the main topic and that in turn would lead the story even further astray from the kind of storytelling VL usually does and more than the boxing storyline already is.
Documentary
Lola, what's the name of the documentary? And do you know if it's available in the U.S.? Thanks!
Homosexualität im Fussball
Homosexualität im Fussball by the German sport channel DSF. They interview the president of the soccer clubs, players, politicians, important gay figures, fans. Most agreed that the problem would likely be less the other players, but the fans, particularly the fans in certain corners of Germany.
They trace stories of known ex players (with there not being much to tell, one guy who was a great young hopefull in his youth and who eventually dropped out because staying in the closet weighed too heavily on his psyche. He is now at peace with himself and an architect or something like that. The other one was I believe a former player in the national team where him being gay was only found out after he died). They have a chat interview with a closeted gay player in one of the bigger leagues who talks about how scared out of his mind he is of being found out, but on some level also yearns to come out. They also interview the first German transsexual umpire who is active in some of the minor leagues but who is very well known because she is so outspoken. She was actually the one in touch with the closeted player.
It can be found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4AOVX-4qW4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLPUNagkcc4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQue32l2XPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjJuTrG1rtc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6IWAyWp-M
It's German only and since it deals mostly with the situation in Germay mentioning the others only in passing, so I think the chances are low of it also becoming available in other countries.
CHRISTIAN'S SEXUALITY, WHY CALL HIM BI?
I'm disturbed about something I've seen several times in this weeks comments and others.
I know that the character Olli has always called himself BI even though he has mostly dated men but I don't ever recall Christian calling himself BI.
My understanding was that Christian identifies as Gay and has always referred to himself as Gay (after going through the whole questioning, Internet chat thang) but folks keep saying he's BI.
It seems pretty common for folks to have dated someone of the opposite sex before they come out so I'm assuming folks aren't saying Chrisian is BI just because he's had two girlfriends (even he admitted to Judith that he was probably attracted to Olli the second he met him but was just to afraid to admit it to himself which is why he gave Olli such a hard time and everyone thought it was homophobia).
It seems like we are very quick to question someone's straightness (despite their protests) if there is even a whiff of gay (Jake G, Ryan P, Wenthworth, etc) but here is a fictional character, a 24 year old guy who says, "I'M GAY" for the world to see and folks keep calling him BI and questioning his identity. Isn't he Gay if he says so?
Anyone want to speak to this issue ?
Gay or bi Christian
I tend to think it's an accumulation of three things:
- Christian genuinely loved Nico and Coco, was attracted to them, slept with them, was sad when Nico broke up with him, was jealous when they talked to other guys. I don't know if there is an official definition of bi, but most seem to understand it as people being capable of falling in love and being attracted to people of both sexes. Christian has been shown in both situations. Particularly the relationship with Coco was long and slowly paced and written as a real love story.
- I think it can be pretty much ruled out that the writers always thought of Christian as gay. He was introduced as a straight character and played as a straight character. Thore himself said that the writers only approached him with the fact that he would get a gay storyline when they started planning for Olli to come back. Calling him bi is about trying to mend those two characterizations (pre and post Olli) into one.
- I don't find it surprising that Christian identifies himself as gay. Christian has always been a black and white kind of guy, so I don't find it surprising that he would gravitate to the more "extreme" label rather than the middling label. Because he is an all or nothing kind of guy. I personally don't think that Christian really has a deeper concept of being gay and I think his convo to Judith about "turning/becoming gay" [in German he says "being in the process of turning gay" rather than something like "realizing that I'm gay"] showed rather clearly that IMO he has no idea what he is talking about. And while he admitted that he might have been attracted to Olli earlier than he thought they have never once shown him as exploring that he might have had same sex attractions even before or that his attractions towards women weren't real. If he wants to call himself gay, more power to him, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it fully represents the facts.
Bisexuality
This came up on another thread (relating to the Details article about "gay" men suddenly realizing they're "straight"), but it bears repeating here.
Bisexuality is often hard for many people with an absolutist either/or mindset to grasp. Usually people seem to only intellectually accept bisexuality whena bisexual is promiscuous with both sexes. If the bisexual enters into a committed relationship they are often then labelled (erroneously) with the orientation relative to their partner ("gay" if with a man, "straight" if with a woman).
However, a monogamous bisexual is still bisexual, even though they are now only in a relationship with a single person of one gender. Their sexual orientation does not change anymore than a gay or straight person's would.
Christian has a history of successfully dating, falling in love with and being sexually active with women. Therefore he cannot, by defintion, be "gay". He is not exlcusively, or even predominantly, attracted to men. But Christian is attracted to Olli both emotionally and physically, so he cannot really be considered "straight" either.
At the moment we know nothing as to what extent Christian may be attracted to men in general. Perhaps in time we'll get more detail there. But for now he is very clearly in the bisexual camp. Probably a Kinsey 3.
Olli claims to be bisexual as well, but leans noticably towards men and is thus at least a Kinsey 4, more likely a 5 based on the limited interest he shows in women. I still thought it was funny how Olli was planning to go for a walk with that girl Lisa until Gregor mentioned how the gym was fully of sweaty musclemen. Olli was suddenly prepared to blow Lisa off so he could go workout (and indeed, ended up tricking with a male trainer).
CHRISTIAN IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER WHO CAME OUT
The explainations you've given would mean that any character (or actual human) who has ever had a loving and sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex would have to be called bisexual FOREVER and never Gay.
In which case only GOLD STAR folks (who've only had gay relationships and gay sex) would get to be identified as GAY. That's a pretty special and I'd say recent situation that folks just come out in high school and only ever have partners of the same sex.
Seems like a pretty limited idea of how human relationships work. I know a lot of folks who are absolutely GAY, GAY, ALL DAY! who've had a girlfriend/boyfriend or two (opposite sex wise) whom they really loved and had sex with but realized (upon getting to be with someone of the same sex) that it was a totally different, better, sexier (perhaps more natural) for thing for them to be with the same sex person.
Since when does coming out as Gay require that you never have loved or had sex with someone of the opposite sex.
I think a 24 year old virgin would have been unrealistic and if you're not a virgin and you don't yet know that you're gay (or you're not out) you gotta boink somebody and it's probably going to be a girl if you're a guy!
His experience, as written, doesn't strike me as unrealistic or uncommon from the gay men that I know.
Hell, I know dykes and gay men who've dated each other (lovingly and sexualy) as teens and then both come out of the closet as great big REAL GAYS.
Plus, Christian is dating a man who identifies as BiSexual and doesn't seem to have any difficulties processing Olli's sexuality (before they were together and currently). He's not stupid. If he was really as unable to understand or accept Bisexuality, he'd be having a lot more problems understanding Olli's attraction to first Coco then Him. Also, he at first thought he might be bisexual (if you'll recall) so it's not like the character didn't have the option.
Christian is a CHARACTER. We don't get to just project stuff onto the character that hasn't been written there or isn't in the script. Regardless of what we think he might be or should be, he can only be as he is written. The writers decided that Christian is GAY. Therefore, he is GAY. Seems simple enough for me.
Bottom line, he's written as Gay and therefore I think to undermine that takes away the impact of his storyline. It's like every time he says he's gay, there's a little sign on his shoulder that says "Well, not really..."
Whatever the writers thought they were going to do with him when Thore started on the show, at some point they decided he would be Gay.
I say YAY, GAY, CHRISTIAN!!
Bias against bisexuality
One thing that is a clear demonstration of bias, and maybe even bigotry, within the gay community is the assertion that bisexuality is somehow "less" than true homosexuality.
In the real world, what Kinsey and other researchers came to realize is that bisexuals outnumber homosexuals (and possibly heterosexuals as well). "Gay" is an identity, not an orientation. A great many "gay" people admit to occasional or even frequent attraction to members of the opposite sex. This is why Kinsey developed his famous 0 - 6 scale to quantify sexual orientation. This allowed for a more nuanced view of sexuality than either a two-way or three-way scale of orientation.
The myth that one is "gay" or "straight" is actually what feeds a lot of the arguments put forth by the so-called Ex-Gay movement. Close scrutiny of many of the subjects that they claim to have "cured" of homosexuality were in fact never exclusively homosexual to begin with. Many were somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey scale and while they were attracted to their own sex they also experienced attraction to the opposite-sex.
Now, I'm in strong disagreement with you because I think that your argument undermines the value that the story places on Christian's feelings towards his relationship with Olli. Nothing in the story suggests that Christian is merely a victim of his Kinsey Score and is with Olli because he can't be with a woman. Christian is with Olli because he loves Olli, not simply because Olli happens to be male. The story has never been about Christian realizing that he's more attracted to men than to women, at least not so far. It's about Christian and Olli as two people in love.
To me that's a much more powerful thing than simply being about Christian and/or Olli being "gay".
The only way for us to know for sure that Christian is absolutely "gay" would be for him to start having relationships withmen other than Olli. The writers could just as easily down the road split Christian and Olli up and pair one of both of them with a woman (God I hope not!).
Just to show some objectivity here, I'm not a bisexual myself. I'm a Kinsey 6. Women do nothing for me, so I'm just fine being "gay". But I also don't think that "bisexual" is a dirty word, or that bisexuals somehow demean the gay community by their existence.
Soaps have always played
Soaps have always played fast and loose with sexuality. Even Olli I believe has refered to himself as gay in certain situations, probably because it was just easier in that context rather than pull out a long explanation about bisexuality. And he has refered to others as gay in a context where it clearly was/should have been bisexual (back when he was crushing over Lukas), particularly since he himself identified as bisexual. I tend to think that VL and the characters of VL often use gay/schwul as just a short hand for guys who do each other, regardless of whether it is a permanent status or not (probably because bisexual is just a lot more unwieldy in this situation and Germans don't care as much about exact labels). VL has repeatedly used labels in a very unprecise way. If that doesn't fit our world view, too bad, they don't care.
Imo, it makes sense for Christian to tend towards the gay label. Christian has always been portrayed as an all or nothing guy who is always convinced that his current relationship will last forever, whether it was Nico, Coco or now Olli. He'd probably be one of those people who thinks that calling yourself bisexual sounds like you are keeping your options open. Christian doesn't want options open. He wants to stay with the person he is with forever and never love anybody else. He wanted the same with Coco too. Whether that is very likely or not, that is Christian's idealism.
At this point, Christian's claims don't seem particularly believable or well informed. We have never seen him express physical attraction to any man so far. And the story was written as Christian having been extremely clueless about his attraction to Olli, suggesting he hadn't experienced anything like it before. Nor has the show tried to show that attraction did exist in the past.
I tend to think the show has to do a better job to make it believably gay rather than just bi or even preferentially gay other than just have Christian believe it about himself. Because Christian's particular character history has shown him to believe a lot of things about the world and including himself that were idealistic rather than true.
It's true that soap characters are what the writers tell them to. Which also means that the writers could just as much change their minds and make Christian's next love interest female again. Or male. Or never have one.
Very solid episode. And it
Very solid episode. And it will be interesting to see how all this will unfold.
I'm actually pleased that the writers for VL decided to take the high road for now and have Christian not go crazy by taking the law into his own hands, but rather deal sensibly and upfront with his now out in the open homophobic boxing workmates. I loved that Christian stood his ground and shamed them on their ignorance. And good that he mentioned how disgraceful they are in thinking it justified that Olli got beat because it's his boyfriend.
Loved the casual attitude of the bedroom scene. I hope ATWT is taking note, since a scene like this, which didn't involve any sex, just the two lovers waking up in bed together could easily be done in ATWT. Nothing R rated about it, just G rated all the way.
I'm glad that VL are taking on the role of having a storyline exposing homophobia in the boxing world. I'm sure, as pointed out by Lola, it will be some what 'over the top' but it's pretty much expected since this is a SOAP. Nevertheless, kudos to VL in bringing a storyline like this to the forefront.
Psionycx... well taken points regarding how few atheletes, epscially males, are not out and proud. The fact that there are thousands of athletes at these Olympic games, and only ONE out male and NINE out females speaks volumns of the fear they feel in coming out in the world of sports. It's really very depressing. I think maybe the only way this attitude could start to change is if some top sports figures who are still at the prime of their career came out. Can you imagine if someone like a Micheal Phelps were to come out and declare his homosexuality...Now that would truly be a moment in history and would trail the way for others. Sadly, I don't think something like this is going to happen anytime soon.
P&G apparently thinks
New translator
Is Nanna on vacation?
I'm curious as to why there's a new source for the clips? I certainly appreciate their hard work in providing these translations for us, but I do find the "footnotes" within the dialogue a bit distracting.
Yep she is!
We should be appreciative
No English subs is more annoying
How about thanking the translator for even doing this? If you feel you have constructive comments for him, you should communicate with him privately rather than mocking his work publicly like this.
TorridGermanLove (Joe) deserves our gratitude, not snide comments.
Seriously?
Wow CthulhuKid . How utterly rude.
You're lucky anyone is subtitling these episodes at all. They don't work for AfterElton. Actually they don't do this professionaly at all. They're just a few nice people who thought non-German speakers might like to know what's going on. IMHO, to make a bitchy post about the translations or subs is not an opinion, or "free speech". It's just good ole fashioned rude and wrong.
Happy with VL and Ollian
I'm very happy with what i'm seeing on VL than with any other gay storyline presently in existance, especially the mess which is ATWT.
One thing I always keep in mind when watching VL is that this is a SOAP, that it is not just the Ollian show and that the writers can only fit in/do so much with the limited time given to Ollian, since as Lola pointed out, they are not considered main characters. I'm also fully aware that Axel and Wolli are both written somewhat 'over the top,' but they are also real character types like them that do exist in society. I have come into contact with enough Wolli types to know that they are plentyful. And there certainly are Axel's around, which is why we get so many documented gay hate crimes existing in the US. Nevertheless, I respect what both Lola and Psionycx have to say because both make valid points regarding the weaknesses surrounding the boxing storyline. Personally, i've never been so caught up in two characters, which naturally has blurred my vision into seeing the flaws in their storyline.
I think that Jo and Thore have put in such a terrific and believeable performance in bringing to life Olli and Christian, that it is a standard by which many gay written couples could learn from.
I know it's a soap
I know it's a soap. And I love soaps. I just think that this storyline is below average of what even soaps are capable of (just like the Ollian getting together storyline and the way the Coco angle was handled was soap writing at its best).
People need to understand that us pointing out the flaws in the storyline is not a dig at the couple. I love the couple so of course I wish they would always get VL's best and constantly have the writers' attention at least in regards to quality. I'm not trying to say that this is bad storyline, just that it could have been much better, even with the means that soaps have and even while keeping it as a "third" or "fourth" storyline opposite Tanja, Grebecca and LySeb. I'm just saying the writers could have paid more attention to detail and build up and character continuity, particularly since they did such a great job in it in the story where Olli and Christian got together.
Plus, for me it's also less a question of thinking that Christian and Olli always *deserve* to have the best writing (I don't think that, I think VL has an amazing enough track record with gay couples, with Ollian being I think the 5th man/man romantic storyline and something like the tenth same sex story if you add the lesbians to the gay storylines; so they have no obligation to give special attention to Ollian, they have already proven their commitment to GLTB writing), but I do wish that such an interesting and important topic were handled better. And I do think that the *topic* deserved better handling. If you look at the German boards, the vast majority of fans who watch the show as a whole just roll their eyes at the storyline. Which really is the thing that shouldn't be the reaction to an important topic like this. It should strengthen awareness, not annoyance.
It's also not a criticism of the show as a whole. Again, it's a big show. It's understandable that the writers can't divide their writing energy equally amongst storylines. I'm just pointing out that to me that seems to be what has happened in this case that it is written sloppily even for a soap. Again, look at the story of how Christian and Olli got together as an example of *tight* soap writing. Of course that story also had its plot holes like Christian and Olli in of all the internet ending up in the same chat room at the same time or how many people remained so clueless for so long or why Coco fell for Olli after just one kiss. But those plot holes could easily be overlooked because the emotional continuity was so tight.
Again, I'm aware this is a soap. And I still think (as somebody who is a fan of VL and of the genre in general) that even within a soap context this is not so stellar writing. Just because I accept that sometimes writers drop the ball on a storyline doesn't mean that I can't wish they would have done a better (or "even better") job. Just because it's a resonably satisfying storyline for fans, IMO, it comes off as mighty choppy within the context of VL as a whole and is very unlikely to attact a lot of new fans among the German viewers at the moment (though I don't think that it is that bad to actively drive others away and sour them to the storyline either, though I have seen some fans who were casual or casual positive slide more into the negative).
I'm not a big fan of AWZ. I'm the last one to defend it. But their gaybashing/homophobia storyline was a lot more tightly plotted. The basher was played by a decent, but still extremely unlikable and unappealing actor. The harassment went on for a longer time before it graduated to bashing. The "trigger" moment was given attention. The locker room tension and insults and character dynamics were starkly realistic. That did a great job of conveying the team pressure and group dynamics. And while it's not an angle that interests me very much, the whole police aspect was given quite a bit of attention. To me, while I still don't particularly care for Roman and Deniz as a couple, the homophobia in sports/gaybashing aspect of the storyline was above average quality for soap standards. I don't even expect that of VL since AWZ as a soap generally focuses more on sports, so I expect them to do better in this regard (nor was the AWZ story perfect, since everything was "resolved" by the couple getting together and the guy in charge of the formerly homophobic team being a nice guy; at this point I don't even know if Deniz even cares about sports anymore or is him being known to be bisexual has any negative influence on him being in a manly team sport for example when they go up against other teams). Still, I say that even for soap writing VL could have done better and that with minimal effort. It's not a crime that they didn't. It's just something that happened/that is there.
Lola...don't get me wrong,
Lola...don't get me wrong, I think it's completely in your right to have decent regarding this storyline. And I don't doubt for one second that you love the characters of Olli and Christian or you would have given up on them ages ago. I actually love reading your insighful comments. And of course i'm greatful to you for bringing us none Germans speakers all the scoop on what's taking place on the German boards, all the spoilers and latest updates surrounding VL.
I admit to have taken a look at the spoilers so know what is to come. From what I have read there is a lot of mileage still left in this storyline regarding Axel and Olli's beating. So who knows maybe things will become more tightly written and acted out to help heal some of the disappointment.
I haven't been prevy to the other stoylines you mention so I can't comment on how good/bad they are in comparison to Ollian. And you are at an advantage to compare storylines within VL since you do follow the whole show not just Ollian, like myself.
I picked up the storyline from when Olli came back from being on a cruise ship. The Coco/Christian/Olli triangle storyline was pretty solidly written and convincing, which is a testement to good acting from both Thore and the actress who plays Coco, since I read Thore didn't really get on well with her on set. I did start off watching AWZ with Roman and Deniz, but they didn't really grab my interest as with Olli and Christian, so I just stopped watching. I didn't see the gay bashing episodes has you mentioned, but I did read it was indeed very well done.
Like I said, i'm loving what i'm seeing, plot holes and all. I haven't set my standards too high so don't feel too disappointed when things don't measure up. Maybe it has something to do with me not really being a SOAP watcher, only the John Paul/Craig story on HollyOaks and now Olli and Christian of VL. That's about my history regarding SOAP Opera watching.
IMO it matters
IMO it matters for a whole bunch of reasons:
1.) Just because there might be good stuff in the future doesn't mean that a story can't be good all the steps on the way. I tend to think for example that the C/C/O storyline was good all the way.
2.) Many people thought that the episodes where Olli gets gaybashed and Christian finds him would be amazing and emotional and huge classics. Yet it played out differently. How can you be sure that the same won't be the case for the scenes you have placed your hope on now?
3.) Just because it might turn into a good relationship story, doesn't mean that it might be a good anti-homophobia storyline. And that was really what triggered the discussion, whether it was doing a good job as a homophobia in sports storyline and whether such a touchy topic didn't deserve to actually a good story written about it.
4.) Quality matters. Not all viewers of VL care about Ollian the way we do and care about whether or not they get sweet scenes together. If they are bored they won't watch. If they won't watch then the ratings will go down. If the storyline isn't better than average then the ratings won't go up. Ollian aren't an ideological storyline like Nuke that is being done just make a statement against homophobia. VL did these kind of storylines 10 years ago and by now gay storylines are just like all other storylines. Which means that they have to prove that they are a storyline that contributes to the show just like any other storyline. And it's gonna have to be better and more compelling than average if it should give a reason to for example a new writing team why they should keep the storyline around. If the storyline just instills boredom in casual viewers why should it be different a potential new writer? In a German setting it means nothing if the storyline is "better than Nuke" because none of that matters to either the viewers or TPTB of VL. Nor is the excitement of overseas people who can't even view the show legally nor pay any tv tax in Germany going to matter much.
4,5.) IMO there is a special je ne sais quoi about some storylines. This certain feeling that a storyline is just *on* that you can really get into it, really feel for it every second. This is not a question of personal fondness of a couple. This is just a question of good writing and good pacing. IMO this storyline is a clear case of not having it. It might be good enough to some, but it's not in the category of those just "hot/on/je ne said quoi" storylines. And the problem is, if they don't have that at the moment how are they going to convince new viewers? And like I said before, ratings matter. Ratings might decide whether a new writing regime comes, ratings might decide whether a new writing scheme keeps the story around, ratings might decide whether the storyline is gonna be given a fitting ending or whether they for example pull a DeRo and have one of them spontaneously fall in love with a girl (see the VL example Susanne and Carla for this). I mean, I don't hope it happens, but I would like to point out that Ollian don' exist in a perfect little youtube bubble.
SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE BISEXUALS..
OK, THAT WAS MEANT TO BE TAKEN HUMOUROUSLY (though of course its true).
Look, my comments have nothing to do with Bisexuals in general or in movies and tv (and I can't obviously speak for THE GAY COMMUNITY). I'm simply speaking to what the writers have written for the character.
Since Christian isn't a real person, we kind of have to take him at face value (regardless of what we THINK the writers might do in the future). We're not talking reality here or proper application of the Kinsey scale (flaws and all, HELLO).
We're talking about a character who believes he is GAY at this moment in time and has made a life for himself with a man he loves (I'm assuming he loves the man and his boy parts, not just his inner goodness) and announced to anyone who will listen that he's gay (something he wanted to do from the second he decided to really be with Olli and realized Gregor would still love him.
A person (real or ficitional) can only be where they are at any given moment. As a character, I think it's really cool and progressive that he's so FULL ON about it. And he's young. Isn't that what being young is about. Being passiately whateve it is that you are. Lots of folks are. That first time that you're with someone of the same sex (if you've been dating folks of the opposite sex especially) is so different and new and WOW, it can make a person want to be very very GAY about it.
But let me not go on...
If the character says he's GAY and the writers don't give us any reason to doub this sexual identity (which I don't think they have in the script since he's come out) then who are we to decide that we know better what they meant or to presuppose the future of the character. It just kinda takes some of the WHOO HOO outta his coming out.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being bisexual and of course, if the character is such, they should identify as such LOUD AND PROUD and it should be celebrated as well.
But this is a soap. It's not exacly layered with meaning. If we are actually suppose to accept that Olivia BURNED 5 MIL EUROS, then perhaps we could just let Christian be Gay for as long as he's written that way.
If a character comes out because they have fallen in love AFTER ONE KISS, that's a pretty significant experience (which maybe only happens in Soap and Romantic Comedies but whatevs...).
I'm not a dude so maybe the experience is really different but it seems reasonable that some folks' coming out stories might be reflected by the story of Christian (as simple as it is). Particularly because he's only supposed to be 24 so he'd be coming out in the 2000s surrounded by people who are incredibly comfortable with Gay stuff (and despite very real homophobia) a world where famous dudes are coming out allt he time.
Does a character always have to tortued for 16 years with wondering about their sexuality, sneaking peeks at the boys in the locker room, falling in love with their best friend and being disgusted by their girlfriends in order to Come OUt and be believable?
Does that mean that NOAH isn't gay either and is really bisexual because he slept with maddie and married ameera.
I'm I just not getting it because I'm a chick?
Why overanylize it. Could it be that we just don't trust a character to actually get to be gay on a show until they've had 5 boyfrieds to PROVE IT because we've been let down before by gay storylines on television?
And now I'll let the sleeping dog do its thang...
Christian was adamant that he was straight
Not all that long ago Christian was adamant that he was straight. Did you take that at face value too? Or did you just assume that based on where the storyline seemed to be going that he was wrong?
I am also basing my position on what the writers have put on screen, not on any personal ideology. I'd be perfectly happy if Christian were 100% gay. But the evidence that we have onscreen suggests otherwise.
Sure he says he's gay. Olli flip-flops between being "gay" and being "bi". The present reality is that he's bedding down with Christian so we can lean "gay" if one likes. Likewise, as Lola points out, Christian is preferentially monogamous (or a serial mongamist, the jury's still out). So he's very likely calling himself "gay" because he has no plans on ditching Olli for a woman.
Whether that actually makes him "gay" in the Kinsey 6 sense is a whole other matter.
(And by the way, I do actually wonder about whether Noah on ATWT is really "gay"based on the way they write and present him onscreen)
But I genuinely am curious here, why is it so important that Christian be "gay" and not "bi"? Do you feel somehow cheated if Christian is not exclusively gay? Does the idea that he's really bisexual somehow make his relationship with Olli less compelling? Olli is repeatedly referred to as "bi" yet he has more of a history with men than Christian, why isn't that an issue as well?
Noah's gayness
I understand people's annyoance for example with the fact that Noah has slept with Maddie on screen but still has skirted around sleeping with Luke. But cockblock writing aside, I always got the impression that the writers did try to at least fig leave cover the whole issue by having Noah talk about how he never fit in/how there was always the conflict with his father, implying that his father sensed Noah was gay or the scene where Ameera hits on him and politely tells her that he tried women and it wasn't for him.
Something (fig leaving) they haven't done for Christian. Personally I like to think of Christian as somebody who just prefers gay relationships and gay relationship dynamics because it suits his personality more. But for me to consider that the official characterization (as opposed to just what I wish he would be) they would have to do something more than that on screen. Again, at the moment the show hasn't even established that Christian's bisexuality goes beyond being attracted to Olli. (IMO a great way to show that without compromising the relationship would be for Andi to come back for a while and have Christian wonder whether he might have had a subliminated crush on Andi too). But yes, having him say that he loves Olli more than his other loves and has no intention of ever finding a new partner is not the same as prefering men to women in general, because we don't know how much of what puts Olli above the women he dates is Olli and how much of it is Olli being a guy. Meaning whether the relationship could have been similarly blissfull if Christian had found a woman with Olli's personality, respectively could have found it with another guy even with a slightly different personality.
Getting right to the heart of the matter
Lola you have managed to put it much more succinctly than I was able to with my musings about sexual orientation in general.
The main issue with labelling Christian is that we have not yet seen any evidence that he has a broader attraction to men besides Olli. For him to truly be "gay" he would have to at least be attracted to men in general (more so than to women) and not just one man in particular.
His self-labelling as "gay" makes sense within the context of his being committed to his relationship with Olli. Since he is in a relationship with a man, as opposed to just having a short-term fling with one, other people are likely going to label him as "gay" regardless of the nuances of his actual orientation. He labels himself as "gay" because he doesn't plan on leaving Olli and so there's no point to calling himself anything else. He's certainly not trying to advertise to the women around him that he's available because as far as he's concerned he isn't.
As for Noah, I was beginning to wonder if he was like one of those bi guys from the Details article. You know, deciding that he's "gay" because he feels attraction to men but alternating to "straight" when he meets a woman he likes. It's still an open question if he would have accepted Ameera's advances if Luke weren't in the picture after all. Or indeed if he would have really resisted them forever of eventually succumbed.
darcolover55...i'm neither
darcolover55...i'm neither gay or a dude, either...I like your post.
I'm one of those viewers who just take the story of Olli and Christian at face value. I don't over analysis, but that's just me. I'm the same when I watch movies. I more or less just sit back and enjoy. Although, I do appreciate and enjoy reading up on the different takes and angles others see in the Ollian storyline. A lot of it very indepth and interesting.
I'm taking Christian at his word that he is Gay. That's what he said he is and therefore I believe him. It's also obvious the writers want Christian to be Gay since it's been written into his dialogue on several occasions with him identifying himself as so. It wasn't more evident as in his coming out scene in the boxing ring where in front of hundreds of people he said...'I am gay, does anyone have a problem with that?" and that Olli is his 'big love.' What more evidence do we need ?!
Identity is the key word here
As a gay man who had numerous "successful" (what an awful phrase) relationships with women, some of whom I loved, it came down to preference. It wasn't what I could do, it wasn't what I had done, it was what I wanted to do MOST. Maybe another person would identify differently, but that is the point. If Olli identifies as Bi, and Christian identifies as Gay, then that should be the end of the discussion.
Nous Sommes Tous Sauvages.
Then why is it?
Then why is it that when someone says that they're "straight" but evidence exists to the contrary most gay people don't hesitate to say that they're wrong or lying (to themself or others).
But when someone says they're "gay", that is treated as a statement of absolute truth. Seems a bit of a double-standard to me.
Like I said, Christian wasn't right when he previously asserted that he was straight now was he?
When most of us refer to Christian as "bi" we're referring to his actual sexual behavior, rather than what he personally asserts to be true. We haven't actually seen proof that he's 100% gay yet. So we're going with "bi".
Most of "Us?"
Did I miss a poll? Folks who throw around the second person plural make me nervous, like folks who refer to themselves in the third person, or ask me how "You Gay People" view a particular issue. Hahaha. Still, your point is taken, and I refuse to get too bogged down in arguing over a fictional character's orientation. But, yes, I think even closeted entertainers get to identify as they choose. And we get to laugh at them.
As a random aside, I was channel surfing tonight and happened to land on an Anderson Cooper piece. My sister's Westie started barking at him on the tube (the dog watches TV) and we all know how much more sensitive animals are...
Nous Sommes Tous Sauvages.
Speaking of Identity
Does anyone see the classic Homophobe = Gay Denial outcome for Axel? Something about his crushing on Christian and the way he beat up Olli after being called names by Wolle seems to be more than bad subtext. Just cause it's a cliche doesn't mean they won't go there. By the way I get a kick out of the actor, found his bio on an acting school web page. Apparently he also does stunts? Or not, since I have no German, I probably flubbed it.
Nous Sommes Tous Sauvages.