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Gays are overprotective of Capt. Jack's sexualityI was at a comic shop tonight and we started talking about Torchwood. It was me, my bf, the store owner and two of his regulars. They are all straight...we're obviously gay. So the topic of Jack's sexuality was brought up and they all commented that gay guys online go apeshit crazy on anybody who suggests that Jack is pretty much straight but likes to have sex with anything. Kinda like the stereotypical high school bisexual...I like to play with the boys but I can only have a relationship with a woman. Yes, they all acknowledged that there Jack has a sexual history with a guy...but in the context of the time line of the show...Jack's clearly emotionaly involved and confused about Gwen. Ianto is a nice diversion. I have to admit, we agreed with them. Big Picture...Jack's sexuality is undefinable...it's not gay, not straight, not bisexual and not that dumb "he's just sexual"...Jack is capabale of sexual and emotional connections with anyone, from anywhere. BUT...with regards to what is going on in the shows run...the writers of the show are clearly aiming for some kind of sexual chemistry and underlying tension between Jack and Gwen. I think they've failed miserably at it, but they are trying. Ianto's involvement so far has bordered on sweet but I have yet to catch a connection between him and Jack. Other than when Jack returned and asked him out it's all been about naughty flirtation and sexual inuendo. Gwen and Jack have moments of confusion and second guessing of their emotions.
So the guys at the shop summized that the gay community is overprotective of Jacks' sexuality and if the writers eventually have him end up with Gwen we'd all storm the castle. Based on things I've read here and at other fan sites...I think they are correct. Submitted by GayTVluver (2056 points) (372 posts) on Sun, 2008-03-23 22:41. |
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Huh, frankly I don't think...
...that it's the gay guys that are apeshit. Based on what I"VE read on other sites and forums, I think that whole fan base of Torchwood are a little nuts. And for the most part, it is straight young women. Some of them want it to be about Jack and Gwen, but they are the minority from what I've read. Jeez, there are even a whole group that want to see a Jack/Owen pairing. (yuck-I think) There are a lot of fans of Gwen but not all of them want to see Gwen with Jack. The huge majority are Janto crazy. And frankly, if I had a choice of either being stormed by dissappointed gay guys or a group of torch weilding young fan girls, I take the guys any day. At least then, survival is a possibility.
The straight guy group is probably not a very big percentage of the audience. And they are always in denial about all things gay, anyway. I honestly think what RTD was trying to portray was a guy from the future where sexuality is not labeled one way or the other. There are very few fans that can wrap their head around that concept.
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
Torchwood has a very big straight male following
Torchwood and Straight Men
I think you grossly
I kinda go apeshit when
I kinda go apeshit when people try to say that Jack and Iantos relationship is purely a physical one, devoid of any emotion. There are clear indications that Jack bears significant feelings for Ianto, Gwen too, but certainly for Ianto. Look for example at the first eisode of series 2 where Jack say "I came back for you" and glances longingly at Ianto before adressing the rest of the team. Of course the bit about him asking Ianto on a date should be a clear give away. Also I believe that the indications of iantos feelings towards Jack are made rather clear (or as clear as the writers of the show seem willing to make).
The issue with the whole insistance on a Gwen/Jack reltionship is that, well, Gwen is married, and though that doesnt mean that Jack can't have feelings for her, I dont believe that he'd ever pursue them. However, his feelings for Ianto are definately pursuable. Jack is a horny bastard, but he has a heart too, under that muscular frame.
Straights are in denial of Capt. Jack's sexuality
These guys have actually watched the show right? Because I know that someone who only reads the online forums might get the impression that Jack's male relationships are just over-hyped slash.
I mean, any time we've seen Jack seriously make out with someone they've been male. Captain Jack Harkness, Captain John, Ianto...
Indeed, Jack's feelings towards men run pretty deep. He felt something that surprised even him for his namesake the real Jack Harkness. He clearly had a love/hate relationship with Captain John. And there's no question that there's more to his relationship with Ianto than just sex. After all, it's not like Cardiff is devoid of places to score chicks. Owen frequents such places every moment he's not dissecting something, or did until he died. Jack could easily go out on the pull if he needed some casual female action.
If anything, I think that it's straight guys that are covering their eyes and ears and pretending that none of the guy stuff is happening with Jack.
But I suppose that's the challenge of bisexual characters. People see what they personally relate to. And for straights it's difficult to see that Jack really does appear to fall in love with men. For gays it's hard to watch him moon over Gwen (mostly because she's a wench. I wouldn't be so bothered by Martha).
I would ask the comic book guys their takes on all of Jack's male relationships within the context of him supposedly being mostly straight.
Maybe when all the gayness
Hmm... but they say "pretty
Hmm... but they say "pretty much straight" like that's a default position. It is actually possible to be bisexual with a preference for your own gender, not the opposite - we're not all just curious straight people ;) That's how I read Jack personally (which might just confirm Psionycx's comment about how we see in him what we want to see, but there you go). Honestly, I also think the image of Jack as someone who'll shag anything that moves is kind of over-rated, I think a lot of the time, the boy's all talk. He's supposed to be this superstud and yet we've been watching his life unfold for two series so far, and ok he's had a few snogs here and there, but who has he actually slept with? One person, and that's Ianto. And for that matter, who has he snogged... Real Jack, Spike, Ianto... not ever so straight really. Now, I don't doubt he's had a lot of action in his time, I'm just not sure he's quite the enormous polyamorous manslut he's made out to be. He also obviously has very deep feelings for men, it's not just sex for him - look at his infatuation with the Doctor, the moving scenes with Real Jack.
Jack's Kinsey Score
I have to say that, if anything, these fellows at the comic book store should be called upon to establish a basis for the argument that Jack is "pretty much straight".
Because onscreen evidence suggests that Jack is either a Kinsey 3 or 4. It's also clear that Jack doesn't just shag men, he clearly has, and seeks out, relationships with them.
Now, I've said in the past that some of this may be "leakage" from Barrowman, who is openly gay and married to a man. He may unconsciously favor playing male-male interactions as opposed to male-female ones given that he's on a show where both are options. Regardless, we know that Jack has been in love with both Rose and the Doctor. We also know that he felt deeply for the real Captain Jack Harkness. Indeed, their whole encounter was played as two men falling in love, not two men in lust. Jack's relationship with Captain John was obviously mostly sexual, but also very passionately so. He has also referenced past boyfriends.
Jack's feelings towards Ianto are clearly still developing. He looked directly at Ianto in episode 2:01 when he said "I came back for you." before ammending himself to expand that to the rest of the team (including Gwen). He was also uncharacteristically nervous when asking Ianto out on a date. And notice that it was a date, not just "wanna come down to my bunk tonight?". He indirectly admits to loving Ianto in episode 2:03 (and provokes a hot makeout scene). When Ianto is freaking out in episode 2:05 Jack's impulse is to pull him into a hug. He then refuses to believe Ianto could be a serial killer despite what "the most advanced lie detector" says. When Ianto says he found new meaning in joining Torchwood Three, and in Jack, Jack's response is to tenderly kiss him on the forehead (and note that Jack kissed nobody else at the table, not even Gwen).
Jack has also obviously had relationships with women, including at least one marriage, plus a brief romance with Estelle that he never pursued again after WWII. He loved Rose and has something undefined with Gwen. Notably he hasn't actually put any real effort into having sex with Rose or Gwen.
All the evidence suggests that Jack is unquestionably not straight, or even mostly straight. He seems to be interested in men slightly more than women in fact, which is why I said he might be a Kinsey 4. His track record suggests it.
He also is, as already noted by Little Hound Dog, not as much of the man whore as the hype suggests. If anything Jack appears to be a romantic and seems to look for more than just sex from his relationships. He even seems more than a little inclined towards falling in love and seems to do so frequently.
Maybe his ideal relationship is a threeway? It seemed that what he wanted most was the Doctor and Rose. Maybe now he wants both Ianto and Gwen? I do wish they'd put more time into exploring 51st Century Whoniverse relationship/sexual conventions.
Regardless, I think that these guys are the ones needing to build a case for Jack being any lower than a Kinsey 3.
Notably he hasn't put any
Notably he hasn't put any real effort into having sex with Rose or Gwen.
To be fair, though, they are both taken. Gwen has a boyfriend (and now husband) - I don't think that Jack would make a play for someone in a relationship. And Rose was off-limits because of the Doctor. I basically agree with your post but did want to address this point.
Maybe his ideal relationship is a threeway?
I loved the Jack-Doctor-Rose dynamic. (OT3! ♥ ) I am all about the Doctor/Jack, though. It makes so much sense, from the viewpoint that they can understand each other in a way that other people can't. Jack can't die and the Doctor is pretty much immortal ... they have travelled together and learned from each other ... both have suffered significant losses - Jack his brother, and the Doctor ... the rest of his race. (Plus, how hot would David Tennant and John Barrowman making out be?) Obviously this will never become requited in canon, but I'm totally hoping that John Barrowman will appear in one of the 2009 specials.
Jack: Still leaning towards gay
Well you should be pleased to know that word is that Jack will be appearing in Series 4 of Doctor Who. You always have to wonder though. You never know when he'll regenerate into someone you'd less interested in seeing Jack snog.
Actually, I don't think that Jack would have held back from Rose just because of the Doctor. Remember that he was with them during the Ninth Doctor's time. Nine wasn't quite as into Rose in a romantic sense as Ten came to be. Indeed, although the Doctor was frequently disparaging of Rose's choices in men, he never attempted to interfere either.
Gwen is a whole confusing mess that we may never understand. On some level I strongly suspect that she would lose some of her attractiveness, perhaps all of it, in Jack's eyes if she were to have split up with Rhys. What seems to appeal to Jack about Gwen is her suppsoed "normalacy", as opposed to her boobies. I've noticed that he's less pleasant towards her when she acts all "Torchwood" and more pleasant when she puts on her normal-girl-in-over-her-head routine.
But again, we haven't seen a lot of Jack do much more than flirt with women. Men, on the other hand, well that speaks for itself.
Speaking of which, I would guess that these comic shop guys would need to revise and update their position following the events in Adrift in particular. Any questions about the fact that he's shagging Ianto are most definitely dead. But also, the latter part of the series shows Jack and Ianto as acting very close, in many ways closer than Jack and Gwen. Especially when Jack stormed out of the conference room in Adrift and Ianto got up and placatingly told Gwen "I'll talk to him". He was also confident enough of his status to defy Jack and lead Gwen to the hidden facility.
But for the real kicker, one should visit the Captain's Blog over on the BBC site. It clarifies a lot of things still more, and throws even more Janto into the water.
Hehe, I knew you'd reply.
Hehe, I knew you'd reply. =)
You always have to wonder though. You never know when he'll regenerate into someone you'd less interested in seeing Jack snog.
True, it's possible that Ten may regenerate at the end of the 2009 'season' (I believe it is to be three specials rather than a regular series). I would be surprised if David Tennant didn't do another full series after that, but of course he may well decide that it's time to move on or discontinue for any number of reasons. I really doubt that the producers will cast someone in a very different age range or someone unattractive, though ... they know their audience. I assume that they'll go for someone quite different to Tennant, but probably not someone grandfatherly like William Hartnell ... perhaps someone more in the character-actor mold, like Chris Eccleston was.
You have a point about Jack, Rose, and Nine. The reason that I think Jack would not have tried it on with Rose is because, loveable cad that he was at first, I think that once he got to know the Doctor a bit, he would have felt that hitting on Rose (beyond their typical banter) would be crossing a line. This is just my perception, of course. I've read some fanfic that had a very plausible Jack/Rose pairing, haha. (Yes, I'm that kind of fan)... I never thought about Ten being more romantic towards Rose than Nine, but now that you've said it, it's very obviously true. I am probably just blinded by my love for Eccleston =)
On some level I strongly suspect that she would lose some of her attractiveness, perhaps all of it, in Jack's eyes if she were to have split up with Rhys.
YES. I think you are on the money there. His estimation of her would go way down. (Though if it happened, perhaps he would hit on Rhys - hehe, after all Rhys has become considerably more awesome this season).
Anyway ... I do agree with you that Jack is definitely skewed towards the guys. I see him as the kind of bloke who (generally speaking) loves sex, likes girls, and falls for guys.
*goes off to read through that blog*
Duh! I love talking Torchwood/Doctor Who
So I'm a geek. Shoot me with a tissue compression eliminator and repackage me as a Ken doll.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying the fanfic world. I do as well.
As much as I love Tennant I do also lament that Eccleston only did one series. He was, as they say, brilliant! But he definitely behaved in a more traditional Doctor/Companion manner towards Rose than Tennant's Doctor did. Privately I do agree with those who think that Rose is a trifle over-hyped. I actually like Martha better. (flames descend to destroy me)
I also like Martha on Torchwood and the way she seemed to subtley nudge Gwen out of the spotlight. I think Jack/Ianto/Martha would make a better team than Jack/Ianto/Gwen. Martha can do anything Gwen can, only twice as well and with only a quarter the amount of whining. God love poor Rhys. I think that man is a martyr and a saint!
You should enjoy that "Captain's Blog". There's a fair amount of debate as to how canon it is. But given that it's posted by the BBC I have argue that it's pretty solid canon. In which case people are not misinterpreting all this Janto subtext.
Thanks for discussing!
Well let's see
Since 99.99% of all relationships throughout television have all been between heterosexuals, I think we have the right to go ape shit if writers drop the ball.
If RTD gets pissed off at us for "shipping", then maybe Jack should have just been 100% straight from the get-go instead of sitting on the fence.
I know Bob and Rose was supposedly daring and all that, but couldn't we have a Captain Jack who just played for our team?
And dammit, do we have to lose five points just for editing our posts?
Don't trouble yourself Doctor -- I'm a celebrity, I'll write my own prescription.
I viewed the Torchwood/Dr. Who edition of the Weakest Link...
on YouTube and after one of the rounds, Anne Robinson turned to John Barrowman and asked him "so John, does Capt. Jack like men or women?", and John's response was "a little bit of both Anne". So there you have it folks...straight from the sexy actor's mouth himself. Peace:)
Regards,
dgd417
I wonder
if you can still fall as easily in love when you're immortal and have already been living for 250 years. You know that the people around you will all leave you one day and you've already lost quite a few of them. And we all know that the first love is the deepest and that once you've been hurt by losing someone you'll never be as open for a new love again. So thinking about all the loves Jack has had and lost I imagine that he might have become a little restrained when it comes to new loves.
Taking this into consideration I think he might have fallen for Ianto after all. For me it looks like he's playing the cool guy who doesn't have deep feelings for nobody just to protect himself from getting hurt again. But the way he asked Ianto on a date clearly showed that it didn't work.
Cap'n Jack