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Other German soap couplesHere some other examples of German gay soap storylines.
Deniz and Roman (AWZ)
Conclusion: Good acting, great chemistry and hot scenes, questionable storyline progression, still ongoing, only occasional subtitles
Sülo and Mischa (Marienhof)
Conclusion: Good acting, interesting older characters, however unhappy ending and not very available on youtube
Olli/Tom/Ulli (VL/Forbidden Love) - First major and poluar gay love story on German soaps (Tom/Ulli) - Happy end for Tom/Ulli - First major all gay triangle (Tom is dating Olli when his ex Ulli shows up and wants him back) - Story aired from 1999-2001 approximately and so not a whole lot of clips are available - Only first few clips have been subtitled so far: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=verbotene+liebe+tom+subtitles&search_type=&search=Search Conclusion: Maybe a bit dated, but interesting history. Hail from the same soap and same writers as VL
Some other couples include Carsten/Käthe (older men, still together, still ongoing, Lindenstrasse), Carsten/Theo (first on screen gay wedding in Germany, Lindenstrasse, Carsten has been a character on Lindenstrasse since the 1980s, the portrayed is an out gay activist), Markus/Gero (VL, late 90s), Lukas/Gero (Lukas was unwilling to come out and so Gero left him eventually, VL, late 90s)
And in case you should ever have an lesbian needs: Carla/Hanna (VL): ended when Hanna died of some soap opera illness, available on youtube with subtitles, major storyline Carla/Susanne (VL): had an artificial insemination baby together and got married, ended when Carla divorced Susanne because Susanne fell in love with a Olli's uncle Lars, also available with subtitles Nina/Erika (VL): One of the first majorly successfuly LGTB storylines on German daytime Franzi/Paula (GZSZ): Very successful teenage love story. Ended recently when Franzi died in a fiery explosion Kerstin/Sascha (Hinter Gittern): Female prison soap. Ends when Sascha dies.
Other major lesbian characters with multiple love stories include Billi from Marianhof and Tanja from Lindenstrasse Submitted by LolaRuns (1528 points) (360 posts) on Sun, 2008-06-15 07:55. |
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VL vs AWZ
I was really enthusiastically following the Roman/Denniz storyline on AWZ until they mucked it up with Vanessa; Dennis Grabosch is so hot, and a great actor.
I hope VL doesn't muck up Ollian the same way; let obstacles come their way, but don't let them stray....
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I hope so. I find
I hope so.
I find AWZ much harder to pin point because it's such a new and "hip" show, it's often hard to figure out what the hell they want. With VL. Even if they were to criminally muck up Ollian, well at least they can rest on a good deal of at least reasonably well done storylines that they have done in the past. AWZ in comparison is much more of a question mark. I guess this is where high risk, high gain comes in. They can hit it out of the ballpark or muck it up badly. Though I think Forbidden Love and Lindenstrasse deserve some recognition for being the most consistenly LGTB representing soaps.
I just wish, similarly to Nuke, that on AWZ they weren't so determined to keep them in each others orbit. Sure the chemistry is great and I'm open to them getting together again in the future. But why can't Roman date somebody else in the meantime? At least spend the time while Deniz potentially grows up? I mean even the often so hemstringed Luke can get noticed by others and treated as a real babe and Roman can't?
That is strange.
I've caught a few clips of the current AWZ, and it almost seems as if they're writing Roman as so bitter over the break-up with Deniz that he's practically stalking him! I don't get it. Roman is such a hottie, he should have his pick of men! I'd gladly go to Germany to tend to his needs!
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At the very least..l
Dennis Grabosch manages to carry it off with a surprising amount of grace and manages to make Roman not come off as insane as it could b. Plus, a decent amount of it consists of just lying in the wait for Deniz to be his own worse enemy, but yes, at the very least they write Roman as not having any other hobbies except wanting Deniz back.
Which I don't get. Quite frankly, their relationship was not this long or this great. Roman is a successful good looking figure skater. Why would he tie his self esteem on whether or not a twit like Deniz wants him?
Dennis Grabosch
is such a hottie I couldn't understand why he didn't make it into the Hot 100 list. I'd pick him every time over Thore or Jo.
And even though the storylines sometimes get out of hand I prefer watching AWZ. I only watch Christian and Oliver on VL while I watch the whole episodes of AWZ. I still hope that Roman and Deniz will get back together because I thought they really had chemistry together, their scenes were even hotter then Olli's and Christian's.
Deniz being with Vanessa was so lame from the beginning. They always acted like brother and sister, so that I never had a doubt that Deniz one day will accept his homosexuality, once he'll be grown up. And Roman just fell so deeply in love that he'll wait forever for Deniz. Sure, this might sound stupid seeing that Dennis is such a hottie and could get everyone, but who never fell in love with the wrong guy? I guess we all had this time in our life when someone could treat us like the lowest creature on earth and we still waited for him to discover that he's secretly in love with us, didn't we?
And honestly, it would be boring right now if Deniz and Roman were still together. That's what makes people watch a soap, to have hopes of their fav characters coming back together, but all the time new events intruding.
But in love based on what?
But in love based on what? At this point Deniz is an asshole with a hot bod and a shallow personality. If that is what Roman is in love with it really doesn't throw the best light on him.
I tend to think Deniz will always have the temptation to fool around with girls, not as a sexuality thing, but as a pure ego thing.
I do agree about the hotness and talent of Dennis Grabosch. I'm sure if the Hot100 vote had been done in December when the storyline was still front and center then it would have likely been Dennis and Igor in Jo and Thore's place. But at the moment their storyline just isn't that great, hence, less likely to be features and hence less people are aware of the hotness that is DG. (which is a real shame)
I'd definitely love it if they could interview DG rather than Jo and Thore. I love Jo and Thore, but I think there are many more interesting questions you could ask DG about what's it like to be gay in the tv and in the soap industry, what made him accept a role on a soap opera, what it was like to grow up gay in Germany, what he thinks the influence of these type of storylines is on society. Plus, isn't his partner English? So I bet his English is probably excellent.
I'd love to read/see an interview with Dennis.
I found one on YouTube, but it was in German with no subtitles; you wouldn't happen to know of any others, would you?
I voted for Dennis for the Hot 100 myself; not only is he a beautiful man, but his talent, his charisma and his intelligence really comes through.
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I don't know of any
Thanks!
I'll check it out when I get home from work!
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Latest Roman/Deniz on AWZ
I watched today's entire episode of AWZ; even though I didn't understand but two or three words (ich, und, das, etc.), I got the gist of it. Wow, the rest of the show really sucks, doesn't it? And that dramamene camera is annoying, isn't it?
Anyway, when did Deniz get hooked on cocaine? (Odd that both VL and AWZ have cocaine addiction storylines going at the same time.) He behaved like an ass, but at least he has a reason to, unlike Noah; and, unlike Noah, he really went after Roman--lots of kissing in today's episode. Even without understanding the language, I could tell Dennis Grabosch was giving a great performance--as if Roman, at first going along with Deniz's coked-up seduction, suddenly realized what a loser Deniz is, and how his narrow "obsession" for Deniz hurt not only himself but other people (the scene with Annette [the girl who slapped Deniz?] was great).
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re: Hot 100 and Interview
How much if it is 20/20 hindsight though?
Of course the situations was different back then. Episodes weren't subtitled on a daily level (the ones subtitled by All About Strenght cover only a tiny bit of the storyline) and Nuke probably wasn't quite as badly in the pits as it was when Ollian started (not to mention, the Vanessa-ization of DeRo might also have contributed to people falling so heavily for DeRo at least in a German context because it showed that Germany too could get it wrong).
Still, if people like Christian and Olli because they are a positive story, there was a time when DeRo also seemed like that. Like they were just blissfully happy and would deal only with minor obstacles. Most of the whole clingy housewife stuff came later and it's not like Olli doesn't have housewife tendencies too. If Ollian were to implode (god beware) in a similar fashion, wouldn't we in retrospect look back on the storyline and judge it in a similar way?
Like I said 20/20 hindsight. It's easy to forget that once upon a time DeRo had similarly high potential and probably even was the better "gay" storyline when it came to realism when you come out.
As for the interview, Dennis Grabosch is an out gay actor who has been rather outspoken about this. Whatever Jo and Thore are, neither of them are out gay actors, so IMO there are limits to what you can ask them and how much insight they can offer. I like straight actors who are gayfriendly and willing to play gay as much as anyone but in my experience there is only so much insight they can offer and imo after a certain amount of time they all end up sounding the same (only with various degrees of being or not being offensive; but the depth doesn't change much). That's why I would much rather hear about gay people being involved in those type of storylines, whether it is out gay actors like DG or potential gay writers of the storyline.
Personally, I'm not surprised that DeRo drew at least some attention from the local gay media in Germany while it seems to be mostly blank on the subject of Ollian.
Sorry Lola
Sorry Lola,
As I said it's a matter of opinion, and of taste I guess. You're assuming it's hindsight or something, but I actually watched AWZ before I found Ollian, and I never got really got into it because I didn't like the storyline that much and I shallowly didn't find the actors that appealing either.
Like I said, a matter of taste. It's my personal opinion. I don't care for Deniz and Roman and never have.
I very much like the Ollian story, and the actors, especially Thore, grabbed me from the first (unsubtitled) episode I saw.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just stating my differing opinion.
I agree with you tihkon...I
I agree with you tihkon...I really don't think that Dennis or Igor from AWZ would have made that Hot 100 list, because the storyline itself wasn't no where near the popularity of Olli and Christian are outside of Germany. Also, I don't even remember AE following the storyline like they do Forbidden Love. I think their characters may have gotten a mention from some bloggers, but they were not really known. And I concur with you regarding their looks...I find Jo and Thore far more attractive. Quite frankly, both Dennis and Igor do nothing for me, but then again, it's all a matter of taste.
I think the main reason that Olli and Christian are so popular is because we have a true love story on our hands. We're seeing a couple that even with all the external negative forces, which usually would pull any other SOAP or TV couple apart, instead draw them closer together. I like for a change that not one of them are on drugs, or fooling around, or going to some ex-gay school, or so ashamed of their sexuality he decides to marry a woman or gets her pregnant. I love that the writers are going against all these cliches and doing a touching love story between to gorgeous guys. And damn it! I want them to crack that glass ceiling and end up happy together.
To be fair though, the
To be fair though, the early DeRo storyline was never as extensively subtitled as Ollian were. So even if people might have wanted to follow it it wasn't really much of an option.
I also think that even though DeRo ended up being not as much of a love storyline, there was a time (after they got together and Deniz helped Roman with his injury and fought with Marian about their relationship) when it looked like they might be steering in this direction.
I like Ollian, I really do. I knew from the moment Christian's dream kiss aired that I liked them better than DeRo. But in this particular I wonder how much of it is being at the right place at the right time rather than truly being the superior story.
As for clichees, well, considering that Ollian just got themselves a beard it's not like they will stay completely free of clichees. Though of course I keep hoping that they will deal with it in a relatively clichee low way just the way they dealt with the (clicheed) situation of Gregor walking in on them.
Cliché or not...
But aren't people cheating
The Deniz character is just
Oh, I loathe Deniz.
Oh, I loathe Deniz. I have written endless posts about just how worthless and unlikable I find him ever since he cheated on Roman with a girl he doesn't even like enough not ot cheat on her too and just lie about it pathetically and constantly. And about just how shallow I find Roman for panting after a guy with such an unlikable personality and no redeeming features other than a hot bod. And how I wish Deniz would drop dead and be replaced by a friend of Ingo's who is just like Ingo except gay or generally for Roman to get somebody, anybody more likable than Deniz.
However, this is just my take on it as a woman, so what do I know. I have had male fans defend both Deniz and Roman to me. Deniz as, well, maybe he still has issues with his sexuality. Roman as, well have you never fallen unreasonably in love with somebody who didn't deserve it?
I just don't think that it really is the place of the female fans to tell the gay fans what they want and what is realistic and what makes a good gay storyline. Hence I'm actually curious to hear what AE's take on the whole issue would be.
Well, here's my take
Soap opera writers tend to change character behavior on a whim, but if I were to analyze Deniz, I'd say he has some serious passive/aggressive issues; also, being a teenager, he may be confused about his sexuality. Not that this exonerates his treatment of Roman, nor does it excuse Roman's near-stalking behavior. Personally, I think Roman needs someone more mature and emotionally balanced, so in that regard I agree with you.
The most popular device is soaps is the romantic triangle (or sometimes even the quadrangle--such as last year's so-called "Quad From Hell" on ATWT: Paul/Meg/Craig/Rosanna); so far, however, most soaps have had their gay couples involved in romantic triangles with women: Roman/Deniz/Vanessa on AWZ, Luke/Noah/Ameera on ATWT (even if Noah/Ameera wasn't a 'romance'), even the John-Paul/Craig/Steph s/l on HO. In a way, one of the things I like about the current John-Paul/Kieron s/l on HO is that the third wheel in the "triangle" is...God.
So far, the bearding s/l on VL is ok...both Christian and Fabian have their reservations, and Judith has made it clear that she has no romantic designs on Christian; it would only turn bad if Judith did "fall" for Christian, but it seems like they won't be going down that road.
So far, none of these shows has explored a triangle involving 3 men (yes, I know there was Ulli/Tom/Olli on VL years ago, but I didn't see it, so I'm discounting it on a technicality!); it looks like we may see that soon on HO, with the apparent return of Craig, but who knows.
Whatever happens to Olli and Christian, I just hope it doesn't eventually involve a romantic triangle with a woman. What would be interesting, and I don't know if they'd be willing to go there, is if another man did indeed become involved with either Olli and/or Christian, and instead of breaking up they considered the option of a "threesome"--not just a triangle, but a "threesome" that's both sexual and romantic--in my experience these rarely last for long, as usually jealousy enters the picture, so it would be interesting to see them explore this. Just a thought.
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I know it suffers from the
I know it suffers from the same "technicality" but VL actually did threesome in the form of man/man/woman even earlier with with Gero/Markus/Sophie (where Gero and Markus ended up ditching Sophie rather quickly and stayed together and left the show as a twosome).
As for the technicality, well, at least parts of the Olli/Tom/Ulli triangle is available on youtube. Even with subtitles ;)
But I share your fondness for the JP/Kieron/God twist on triangles.
I do have to say, because of Christian's character makeup Christian strikes me as one of the world's unlikliest people to ever agree or be happy with a threesome for even a day.
You're right about Christian
I don't think he'd go for a threesome at all.
Actually, such a scenario is more likely for Roman and Deniz than Christian and Olli.
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Thinking about it, I'm not
Thinking about it, I'm not sure if it suit them better. If it weren't for Christian's moral objections I would say Ollian would be the better suited couple for it because they have a fairly stable relationship and it is imaginable that they might think that their relationship could "take it".
If Deniz and Roman were doing it... Roman is just so needy with Deniz that I have a hard time being able to picture it not coming across like Roman is only agreeing it to keep Deniz and is secretly miserable. I could see it if it was Roman and another, less messed up guy in a relationship.
JP&Kieron, can't picture it because of Kieron. JP&Craig, can't picture it because kinda like Roman and Deniz, JP is just way to focused on Craig.
Did you ever try to follow the Enric/Max/Iago storyline on El Cor? Incidentally they broke up for a very similar reason. Enric and Max (who are btw basically teenagers or at least look the part) decided to have an open relationship. They could sleep with other people, but never more than once with any one person. Max slept with Iago, but felt a lot of guilt. Eventually Enric cheated on him too much and left him and Max was mad because he had followed their rule of only sleeping with Iago once even though he would have liked to have slept with him more. Of course Max and Iago got together eventually and had a really cool non-gay related storyline centered around Iago's criminal endevors and how it cost Iago's mother her life.
Absolutely
Jo Weil's eyes
For me, the eyes of Olli (Jo Weil) are what hooked me for that character initially, especially when he gives that sad, pining-for-an-unrequited-love look. Christian (Thore) is also hot, of course, but he has become so much hotter since hooking up with Olli. Perhaps Thore's acting has improved or he has simply become more comfortable with his character but I find Christian has such a sexy joie de vivre with Olli that he never quite managed with Coco, even when he was parading around half-naked in a bath towel.
I also agree with tihkon & Maxine...Ollian is a supercouple!
I do prefer Ollian over DeRo any time in every respect: looks, chemistry, story (and in my case they didn't have an advantage being subtitled).
I think what mainly makes people prefer Ollian over the other couples is the romance factor.
As I remember there was some article on afterelton.com a couple of days ago in which the editor evaluated the US-TV gay couples concerning significance factor/sex factor/romance factor/looks department factor (I don't recall the exact names of the categories).
DeRo might have had some mention in the German gay media (significance factor) they might have had some hot make out scenes (sex factor) (although Ollian's - finally - coming - together - make - out- scene - april4/4 blew me away), but IMO Ollian are way superior in the looks department (important for the HOT 100) and IMO get the highest rating possible in the romance factor!
It's the romantic story of this genuinely loving couple fighting obstacles coming from outside, the remarkable chemistry between the actors and the so often mentioned sweet little things and interactions among them that it simply clicked between them and the audience and make the viewer enjoy watching these two.
Writers like best to plan the becoming of a supercouple in detail, but often enough there are things they cannot control - like the audience doesn't like an actor (e.g. Fabian), the actors are lacking chemistry (e.g. Judith & Fabian), the actors can't believably convey the scripted affection.
With Ollian they (and we, of course:-) have been lucky, because they simply match perfectly:
"Perhaps Thore's acting has improved or he has simply become more comfortable with his character but I find Christian has such a sexy joie de vivre with Olli that he never quite managed with Coco, even when he was parading around half-naked in a bath towel."
That is exactly the impression I got!
Isn't it better to rather
Isn't it better to rather be safe than sorry? I agree that Ollian has a lot of very solid build up and chemistry, but when has that ever stopped soaps from ruining a couple? Who's to say that they won't cheat on each other or break up and be paired with others or that one of them will die and the survivor will be paired with somebody else.
Or that Nuke and DeRo won't make a spectacular comeback that blows everything out of the water? *At the moment* Ollian seems to be the best bet, but that is hardly set in stone.
Isn't it better to rather evaluate the present?
Isn't it better to rather evaluate how the stories of Nuke or DeRo or Ollian or whoever appeal to us till now, to this moment, because it's the only thing we know and therefore can?
I also don't know what the future brings. I could imagine some love affairs (as they usually happen on soaps), but as we don't know if at all and where that would lead to, why bother now?
The only thing I can see and evaluate at this moment is a beautiful loving couple in a romance, well acted with some amazing chemistry who is facing their obstacles together.
See, to me the problem that
See, to me the problem that there used to be an "at this moment" when people felt the same about DeRo or even about Nuke very early on. Which is why to me many people throw words like supercouple and best, most amazing couple ever around too easily.
Ollian is the story I like the most and I'm rooting for the story to stay this way. However, to prove that you are a true supercouple it just takes more than that. It takes being able to retain that for a long time (now regardless of whether one or both withstand temptation to give in to any bad storytelling; now the best couples might be the one that stay solid all the time, but compared against classic supercouples one could also argue that the defintion is a couple retaining their connection even when ripped apart by others or by circumstances).
It just seems unfair to me to claim that Ollian is better than DeRo/Nuke/whatever based on an "at this moment" analysis because those other couples had their "at this moment" moments too at other points in time. And only time will tell if Ollian can really eclipse them on a more permanent basis and if neither of the other couples can get their act together and produce something that is at least comparably compelling.
Fab...I hear you loud and
Chrolli great BUT....
I watched a few clips of AWZ, but- man!- that was dull. A recent episode showed Deniz posing and being photographed, and ... Nothing! I was bored, and found him just... irritating. He looked like a show off. There was no chemistry. And the other one's too gay. I may just as well go out with a girl. The chemistry between our masculine and handsome studs (Chrolli) is real. It's love. The viewer falls in love.
Watching AWZ makes me straight. Not good! I've tried to be fair, but I just can't watch AWZ. Even if they had an excellent story, I couldn't watch it cause I don't find the actors attractive.
My greatest worry is that Chrolli could become boring. I'd much rather see them traverse really difficult situations, than sit there cosily, happily ever after. I mean, what happens when everyone finds out that Chris is gay, and he's won the boxing contest.Then what? What more problems could they have? The writers would need to come up with something really impressive, and I can't imagine what! And please no killing. For all I care, they could happily kill the others, but not our beloved Chrolli. Any great ideas for Chrolli?
Are you sure you don't want
Welll... I'm....eh...
Those scenes are really intriguing, but Deniz (I keep writing Denis!) and Roman just don't do it for me. I have no desire to kiss either of them. Watching Chrolli, I feel everything they feel. A kiss is not a kiss; it's something I'm experiencing too. I'm attracted to Chrolli, and want to know their story. D&R just aren't as attractive as Chrolli. Even if their story were to be better than Chrolli's (God forbid!), I couldn't watch it as I'm not into D&R. If Chrolli were to act badly, I'd eventually stop watching it too.
I started watching VL only because of Chrolli,and I'm glad they're good actors. Watching Roman pine away leaves me cold. Watching Olli pine away kills me! I just want to take him in my arms and comfort him any way I can. Same applies to Christian. I do want the opposite of cosy, happily ever after, BUT with Chrolli.
I'm not sure if I've made myself clear. I know it's a bit silly to be so attached to Chrolli, but I can't help it. I'm probably missing out of D&R, but I just can't get excited about it the way I do Chrolli.
No, not, it's interesting
No, not, it's interesting to hear all kinds of opinions (and everybody has their devotions). For example, it always seemed to me that both Roman and Deniz are a lot more muscled/toned than either Thore or Jo (for example if you take DeRo in the pool kiss scene or the makeout scene in front of the mirror).
I too find Chrolli the "sweeter" couple in a lot of ways, but it would never occur to me to see DeRo as girly.
Do you speak German? I always wonder if there is something lost in translation a lot. If DeRo for example have a tendency to appeal more to people who understand the dialog directly.
DeRo and Chrolli
Sorry Lola for the delay. Haven't watched Chrolli for a week cause of work! My classes in Adv German are slowly paying off, but not enough to understand that blitz of German when Chrolli start yelling!
Finally!!! Someone DOES agree with me that DeRo is more muscular than Chrolli. I mentioned it once, and everyone landed on me like a ton of bricks. Their message: Chrolli is perfect, and don't you dare critize them!!! I PERSONALLY think that Chrolli, especially, Chris should hit the gym. He's not as muscular as the other boxers. Don't get me wrong. I think they're still hot; however, a little gym work wouldn't hurt.
The shorter one - Roman? - is too girly for me. Ice skating??? If that doesn't add to the queer cliches. And he looks a bit fem! I hope I'm not offending anyone here with my honesty, but it would be great to see gay guys on TV who are straight-acting, and not depicted as the sterotypical queer. Which is why I find Chrolli so fascinating.
Does anyone actually do subs for DeRo? I couldn't find many, and I do find it a bit hard to understand them. The pause button is my best friend when I watch these German clips.
Gays of Daytime is doing
Gays of Daytime is doing subs for DeRo latelly, ever since the story started picking up. Hees the link:
http://www.youtube.com/user/gaydaytime
Soap realism
Sadly, soap realism only goes so far. Kinda like they always do this storylines with female characters who turn into models despite the fact that they don't look the way real models look at all. (the peak of this being the Liz vs. Gia storyline on General Hospital where Liz won the modelling contract despite the fact that the actress is short even for actress standards) Apparently those are the kind of things where are supposed to close your eyes on the realism and enjoy the characters.
AWZ seems to be a special case since they do seem to at least take the ice skating halfway serious since it is pretty much the basic concept of their should. Well though mostly for their main actress who is a professional ice skater. Quality goes down for most other characters, particularly Juli, the new skater.
As for clichees, well, Olli might not act too gay but he is a waiter, an ex-Steward and used to be a bit of a partyboy. I tend to think that that is a clichee in its own right ;D
LolaRuns...I have a question?
I was just wondering...do they have SOAP awards over in Germany like they do over here in America and in England? I was just wondering since I saw something over on the Gays of daytime site where the two guys who play Roman and Deniz were picking up an award for their roles. Thanks!
Awards
I don't think that they have soap awards per se. That award that Roman and Deniz got was from a gay themed magazine named BLU that gave them award for best format (local). So it's like the way you have AfterElton Top100, Maxim Top100 or if The Advocate voted for best tv show.
So occasionally they have magazines and tv channels voting for their faves. RTL (the channel that airs RTL) did an internal "Sexiest Soapstar" thing for example (where only soaps by RTL were nomminated) and Igor won that. VL won Rose D'Or for Best Soap a few years ago but that was for the show overall (Rose D'Or is like a version of Cannes for tvshows for shows from different countries).
Bascially, no I'm not aware of anything that resembles the daytime emmys in format.
LolaRuns...Thank you so much
Giovanni Arvaneh (Sulo from Marienhof)
Giovanni Arvaneh, yes!!!