Jack and Ianto's love is integral to the plot of Torchwood S3, says Director Euros Lyn

This is something that was confirmed yesterday by Gareth David-Lloyd at the LA Doctor Who convention yesterday.

Pictures and coverage after the weekend at the link below.

I'm the guy who blogs at http://IAmATVJunkie.com, and I would love for you to visit.

Down right scary rumours abound about the fate of Ianto in the upcoming series. Sounds like it might be curtains for our favourite teaboy. And not the good kind. Deeply disappointing to realise that even a gay creator/writer doesn't save us from the Dead Gay Lover syndrome. Anyone want to lay bets that it's to clear the way to hook Jack up with Gwen?

I don't think John B is that hard up for a job. Hopefully he would "retire" from Torchwood if BBC1 required him to, err, gwack. Or they could create a Torchwood satellite branch without the Cardiff regulars (and effectively kill the series). 

On a DLS (dead lover syndrome) note, if the character Jack is near immortal, he will have gone through many, many loves, watching them age and die.  How many before one become numb to the experience? This may be what the writers suggest IF Ianto passes away.

( I just wonder where the body of the "Face of Bo" is located...)

From what I've heard the rumours come from the James Marsters camp, not the Doctor Who sites. The lovely Mr David-Lloyd being a good mate of his and currently staying with him in LA.

TBH I don't think that Gwack would work. Janto just does work better & its more...dramaticy if you know what I mean?

But i don't think that RTD will kill of Ianto, cause it keeps the Janto vs Gwack debate/who will he go for in the end questions going which half keeps the show going.

John Paul McQueen - Have you ever heard of a gay sandwich before?!

I have mixed feelings about this pairing and the future of the show.  On one hand, I never really felt like they were written as True Love.  They just sort of happened out of the blue, just a few weeks after the traumatizing conclusion of Ianto's extended, heartbreaking relationship with his cyber-girlfriend.  And Jack has been showing interest in other people of both genders, all along in the relationship.   Anyone else remember the original Captain Jack?

So, I have no problem creatively with the idea of them not being together forever.  However, so many people seem to be so deeply, deeply invested in them as a couple that if they were to break them up/ kill one of them, the backlash would be so horrendous it might threaten to take the show with it.  It would almost certainly force me to disassociate from fandom, since it would become an endless stream of accusations, preachy polemics about the horrors of homophobia, and witchhunts to find everything that could possibly be criticized about the show.

Let's also not forget that last season, the show killed off two straight (or as straight as Torchwood allows) regulars, and it was established early on that Torchwood staff die young.  So if he does die and people start sharpening the rhetorical knives, keep it in  perspective: it's not because he's gay.

the Ianto and Jack love story is really integral to season three.

I only hope they mean that in a good way! :-)

I'm sooooo tired of seeing a gay lover killed in books and movies, so I'll try to ignore all the rumors that Ianto might not survive the next season. For me this would be a huge disappointment since their relationship is what I love most about the show. (Can there be a more horrible thought than Jack and Gwen together?!?!)

True, we've seen Jack attracted to both sexes in the past, but I always thought the longing glances he casts at Gwen and Rhys at their wedding mean that he wants to have that, too: a meaningful, deep relationship, someone to trust and to return home to. When Ianto asks him to dance, that's exactly what he's offering...

Maybe Jack is tired of screwing everything available (hey, he's done that for *ages* after all) and ready for more, for something real, for a true commitment. And that would perfectly reflect the experiences of many (gay) men I know as well. At some point one-night stands aren't enough anymore and you want more. 

What would keep Torchwood unique would be showing both of them together and present a strong relationship. That is still something much too seldom seen on TV and in the movies, and it is exactly what this gay man here wants to have for Jack and Ianto: true love. Please don't split them up.

No I dont want Ianto and Jack to split up.. You just cant have Torchwood withoutb Janto!!

and i realy hope Gwen gets killed off. I cant stand her !

i don't want gwen, nor ianto to die (wow, i am shocked i said that)

i mean, why kill tosh and owen...and then kill ianto? JUST to keep gwen for Jack? that would not make sense to me. might as well kill off Rhys too. The people behind the show would be idiots to kill off ianto. i really doubt that is going to happen. if so, peace out torchwood.

 

if the writers and producers got into a cycle of killing off characters to prove they're edgy. Because constantly killing off characters isn't edgy, it's creatively bankrupt.

If they killed off another major character, it'd begin to suggest that Cardiff is a more dangerous place for humans than the Dalek homeworld. I'll grant you that on a Saturday night when the pubs are being cleared out, well, Cardiff has its moments. But if you compare a couple of years of Torchwood to nearly five decades of Doctor Who, the Doctor's companions are safer on a planet with an exploding sun than Jack's companions are on a wet Wednesday outside the town hall.

The other thing that such a high death rate would suggest is that the Torchwood staff actually aren't very good at their jobs. Why should viewers bother investing emotionally in the series' characters if those characters are mostly lucky rather than competent and all face a time when that luck runs out.

As has been said above, if Ianto is simply being got rid off to open the way for a Jack and Gwen relationship, then the series has descended into cliche far too quickly. Apart from anything else, Gwen's problematic character traits seem so strongly written that any change to make her more attractive would ring false.

He gave an eyeroll to Kai ("Rhys") Owen and said, "Just watch the *bleeping* show!"

I just got back from the 3-day Gallifrey Convention in Los Angeles and sat through 2 Q&A's and 1 interview with Gareth David-Lloyd.  Based on things he said, I am very sure that Ianto will not get killed during Series 3 of Torchwood as he seemed to indicate that Ianto would be around if a Series 4 gets the go ahead from BBC.  Series 4 all depends on how well Series 3 does, so start spreading the word around!

Gareth did indicate that there will be some sort of coming out issues for Ianto in Series 3 and that his relationship with Captain Jack is further explored.  He mentioned that Ianto will deal with issues of loneliness and with trying to understand the meaning of dating someone who will live forever.  We really got no specifics from anyone on any of the Torchwood panels, just some general statements like the ones above. 

Also, from what Kai Owen (Rhys Williams) & others said, Rhys and Gwen seem to be going strong, so there is no reason to freak out about a Jack-Gwen pairing.  Based on reaction at the Gallifrey convention, the fans are definitely behind Janto, NOT Gwack.

Both Gareth and Kai Owen were very friendly.  Gareth is hilarious, constantly making the crowd laugh with his x-rated humor and tales.  The Tochwood panels were definitely NC-17 rated.  Naoko Mori surprise appearance on Friday was very cool as well.

I do think it's a little scary that people are putting so much credence into an unsubstantiated rumour that Ianto's going to be killed off the show, or even that it would be shocking if he was. He works for Torchwood, and as Ianto said himself, everyone there dies young. So, if you're only interested in the show for Jack and Ianto, yeah, I can see why you'd stop watching if half of that pairing left. I actually like the show, and not only because of the Jack/Ianto, so I'm definitely going to reserve judgment on season 3 and decide whether or not I'll keep watching until the thing has actually aired and I get to see it for myself! And I am certainly not going to start hating RTD or GDL or anyone else on Torchwood if Ianto did leave because the Jack/Ianto pairing has brought me a lot of pleasure and more fun in fandom than anything has in ages.

Besides that - who says there's even going to be a season four? It's way too early to decide that, no? It's still months and months until we get to see season three (and I absolutely cannot wait)!

From watching the interview with Euros Lyn, all I got was good vibes regarding Janto. To actually explore their relationship - as opposed to have it as something on the side while Gwen's busy lying to/arguing with/shagging Rhys - is something that I am very much looking forward to.

I wouldn't worry about him getting killed off. To do it straight after Tosh and Owen would be just silly. The only good thing that would result from Ianto's death would be to see Jack's heartbreaking reaction.

the kind LiveJournal user lv2bliberal uploaded clips from all the three panels Gareth was on at Gallyfrey:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=cos2mwiz&view=videos

Day One: Gareth, Kai Owen + Naoko Mori

Day Two: Gareth

Day Three: Gareth and Kai again.

Gwen has Rhys. Gwen married Rhys. I recall lots of comments during Series 2 commenting that Gwen really seems to love Rhys. Gwen isn't a total slut... I hope...

Just based on my own impressions of the show, I've never gotten why people give so much credence to the idea of Jack and Gwen becoming a romantic couple.

I always thought Jack was attracted to Gwen's connection to Humanity  and how she could bring that to the team.  He finds her amusing and fascinating and appreciates her (and I think also gets off on how attracted SHE is to him).  But that's all.

Initically he craved her "innocence" regarding all the torchwood/alien darkness,  her strong sense of "morality" (something he has lost) and her curiousity and tenacity about things.

The rest of the team is all war-worn and jaded and sad and lonely and angry and kind of misanthropic and Gwen is supposed to represent the "heart" but not in a romantic way, in more of a "you can't treat human beings like this!!!" kind of way.

Gwen is the civilian who thinks about people as people rather than just one element in the war against the Rift and alien invasions and time bandits and such.

I think Gwen hero worships Jack because he's superhuman in a way but I've never taken the "romance" thing seriously.  Gwen may have romantic feelings about Jack but it's not really love and I think the more she gets to see Jack as a "man" and not a superhero, her adoration will temper itself.

Jack has seen too much and lived so long that I think he finds Gwen's attitude "refreshing" even when she is frustrating the hell out of him and he knows her presence creates a "balance".

I think Jack flirts with Gwen because he can. He flirts with everyone.  And I do think he's possessive of his team members and resented Rhys influence over Gwen (and maybe the "normalcy" of their life together)  But I still don't think there is any "there" there regarding GWACK.

I will miss Tosh and Owen. I just don't get why Owen had to die when he was already dead. Sigh...

"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorothy Parker)

This was an interesting interview with John and Gareth: http://popculturezoo.com/archives/903

"PCZ: Excellent. Considering Jack is from the 51st Century and is now immortal, do you think perhaps the relationship with Ianto keeps him grounded and focused on the little people and what’s going on?

JB (thinks for a moment): I guess it…yeah! It probably does. It brings out the “human” in him, it brings out more of the empathy because he’s actually fallen for someone and he really cares about somebody. So, it’s really great and I think that’s what makes him warm to other people. It makes him more approachable.

GDL: Absolutely. I think Ianto’s always made him care and that is really the heart of the show. Ianto’s always bearing his emotional side and vulnerable side and keeping his feet on the ground. I think of all the characters, he’s the one who tries to keep everyone else’s feet on the ground. He brings everyone back to reality, often with a dry, witty remark or taking a dig at somebody just to sort of bring people back down."

 

I found this especially interesting because in Series Two one thing I noticed is that Gwen (or maybe just her nagging) has the opposite effect on Jack. Whenever she starts in on Jack he closes up and becomes, if anything, even more remote. Indeed, there are times when Jack seems almost antagonistic towards Gwen, and more prone to act callous in front of her.

Not that it's a surprising reaction given the way she's always in his face challenging him. For the member of the team with "heart", Gwen is the one that has perhaps fallen the farthest of all of them. For all that she's protective of her "normal life" with Rhys it's often blatantly clear how that protectiveness takes the form of an attitude of ownership of him. After the Owen affair it would have to be clear to Jack that Gwen would probably be most happy with him and Rhys - one man for each of her lives (possibly more, fidelity not being her strong suit).

Ianto on the other hand seems to evoke a different response in Jack. A lot of their conversations are "insider" ones, where they exchange very personal thoughts. Jack has clearly entrusted Ianto with secrets (such as the existence of the Flat Holm facility) that he hides from the rest of the team. When Jack needs to relax his hard facade he often does it in front of Ianto rather than anyone else. There's more of a "sharing" element to their relationship 

So to montypython's point, I think there is some merit to Ianto, not Gwen, being the "Rose" to Jack's "Doctor". Ianto may not have a "normal" life outside of Torchwood like Gwen does. But he has at least as much "heart" if not more. Also, he's actually been less corrupted by Torchwood than Gwen. Gwen starts out as a supposedly nice, normal girl who has, over time, become increasingly callous and self-absorbed. In Ianto the process has been reversed. He started out withdrawn (because of his dark secret in the basement) but has since become more open and fun, especially as his relationship with Jack has developed.

This is an odd inversion, as Gwen has become less "human" and Ianto more so. I can see this triggering a nurturing response in Jack, making him want to care more. In contrast, his increasingly tense stance towards Gwen may stem at the sense of betrayal caused by her losing her normalacy and becoming more "Torchwood".

As darcolover55 points out her heart was supposed to be her main virtue. But we have seen in various episodes like Out of Time, To the Last Man and Meat that the rest of the team is not utterly cold either. They've just been weighed down with an extremely difficult job, albeit one that gets easier as general human knowledge of aliens grows and as a result less covering up will be required.

It will be interesting though to see how they manage without Tosh and Owen, both orders of magnitude more useful than Gwen (more interesting too IMHO). It still seems to me that Jack and Ianto are more partners, while Gwen is iffy. You never know when she'll put a personal issue ahead of Torchwood.  Also, she's got a ways to go in developing necessary technical skills. I'll bet Jack regrets not dragging Martha and Mickey back to Cardiff with him after the Doctor dropped them all off.

 

All the smack about Gwen being the "heart" of "Torchwood" is so ironic -- I think Tosh is a lot more vulnerable and human than the supposed "everywoman" Gwen. People who go to the cons after say how funny and charming Eva Myles is -- I wish even an ounce of that would come out in the character of Gwen, because it does not. Instead, she's shrill and pushy and selfish -- if that's Everywoman, then women should be highly insulted. Perhaps it's an unconscious racism that made the producers think an Asian-looking woman couldn't be the stand-in for the viewer, but the entire concept of Gwen seems a misfire. If she truly is the Last Person Standing at Torchwood, that will be a huge pity.

I just wanted to be clear, Torchwood Geekette That I Am

I have NO LOVE for Gwen. I find her irritating and disengenuous and judgmental, reckless and shrill. She doesn't seem to learn from her mistakes and she lets her personal feelings get in the way of the mission way more than I'd allow if I were in charge.  I love the character Rhys and don't think she's good enough for him.

Her affair with Owen sealed if for me. No just because she cheated but because she didn't have the nerve to tell the truth and accept the consequences and she didn't have the faith in the man she was going to marry to believe he might get past that affair (which granted, happened under the duress of having become a Torchwood team member)

I was just trying to explain the supposed "attraction" folks seem to think exists between Jack and Gwen and the reason why I "think" he initially wanted her on the team.

FOR THE LOVE OF JANTO

Ianto is Jack's anchor and partner, NO DOUBT and he is no pushover either. He inspires Jack to behave better and connect by the strength of his affection for Jack and how much he believes in him but he doesn't put Jack on some bizzare pedestal and he allows him to be faliable but still loved. I think he has a much better sense of what Jack has been through because of his having worked for Torchwood longer and Ianto isn't afraid to be fierce when he needs to be yet gentle and loving when he wants to be.

For me it has been JANTO all the way since Jack first breathed life back into Ianto during the Cyberwoman episode when Lisa died.

TOSH

I agree that Tosh was the HEART of Torchwood Cardiff and she had depth and nuance and strength of character and beauty Gwen will never have. She managed to be balsy and kick ass in a pencil skirt and platform heels! The two love affairs she had (not counting adam) were so intoxicating in large part because the actress took you along for the ride in a really visceral way.

OWEN

I loved Owen too but he was so miserable that it was just almost too painful to watch him after he came back to life. I guess that's the only reason I could accept his death more readily than Tosh's

FUTURE

I'd love to see more of Andy. 

I still think there could be some time foldy thing where they have to go back and get Tosh or Owen. Season 4?

I'm not giving up.

I'm more worried about the "taming" of the show to cater to US audiences. I'd rather they not show it on BBC America than change the content to suit conservative Americans who aren't even going to watch a show with an omnisexual hero anyway.

 

"Heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common." (Dorothy Parker)

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