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Inching out of the closet
But not all gay fans are content with seeing their idols inch out. "I think it would be great for Jodie Foster to officially come out, as so many people DO admire her," said one reader wistfully. "She is a great example of one who could be a positive GLBT role model and we need more of those. Every time I hear somebody say, 'What does it matter if he's/she's gay?' it frustrates me because it does matter. GLBT teens are a major at risk population and need positive role models." And that's the argument. It's not that famous queers owe the community anything. It's simply recognizing the reality that what they do – and don't – say affects the community, whether they want it to or not. Celebrities live big, on the magazine and tabloid covers in the supermarkets, on the nightly news, on entertainment shows, in gossip columns, and all over the Internet. When successful, powerful people answer questions about their sexual orientation without playing games, it shows that they're not ashamed of being gay or lesbian. It sends a message to queer youth that they, too, can have a good life and contribute positively to the world. It also challenges stereotypes and affirms that queer people are, indeed, everywhere and everything that straight people are. It breaks down barriers, raises hopes, and increases support for GLBT civil rights and equality. Nothing makes a more positive change in people's attitudes towards gay civil rights than visibility. And that's why inching out, however good it might be for an individual, isn't a good thing for the GLBT community. As out lesbian tennis legend Martina Navratilova told OutSports.com, "Just by being honest and out about who you are, to me, is enough, you don’t have to do one (more) thing, for the rest of your life, when you are that famous, because that’s your contribution right there." In short, coming out beats the hell out of inching out. Like most valuable and important things, that contribution isn't always an easy one. Mentioning the difficulties of navigating the public coming out process, Sir Ian said, "It's very hard and I don't think we should expect people to do anything other than what they can do." Still, he concluded, "We've all got a part to play and it would be quite enough, as far as I'm concerned … to say 'Yes, I'm gay,' and leave it at that." Far from demanding gay celebrities do more for our community, how about expecting them to do only one thing: Don't inch out; come out. Because that is, in the end, the single most powerful thing anyone can do to support equality. Submitted by on Wed, 2008-02-27 22:36. |
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Or as
Inching towards being out
It's never easy to put yourself into someone else's shoes and fully understand the obstacles they'd face in their own lives upon coming out.
That said, I agree 100% that one of the most important things one can do for our collective rights as gay people is to come out and be out. Our movement didn't really begin to gain traction until people started braving the disapproval of their families, friends and society at large and put their own faces on the previous nebulous notion of "gays".
As I mentioned on another entry about why NPH/DB are seen as a gay "power couple", it's largely because we don't have any others to look to!
Gay visibility varies from place to place. It seems to have reached an all-time peak in the U.K. these days. But one has to wonder if one reason many people in America have a hard time adjusting to the idea of things like same-sex marriage is because they don't see all that many same-sex couples in general.
Also, I don't believe that the "out to the community" thing really exists. Given our tabloid culture's propensity for digging around in the garbage of anyone even reasonably famous, I have a hard time believing that any celeb can be "not hiding it" and yet not have it plastered all over Us Weekly. Clearly some PR management is being applied behind-the-scenes to keep things quiet.
While I'm not sure that half-closeted celebs deserve our scorn, I definitely don't they that they deserve respect from any gay person who is out. The average gay who is out of the closet in the everyday world is a lot braver and has a lot more to be proud of than the famous person who is quietly pseudo-out.
Like It Or Not. . .
. . .and contrary to what the conservative media brays about 'liberal Hollywood', it is STILL a conservative business. . .
. . .and if you don't think so, I will remind you that it was the fourth-rate "Grand Canyon" retread called "Crash" that took home the 2005 Best Picture Oscar, and not "Brokeback Mountain".
I say kudos to Chad Allen, Neil Patrick Harris, David Hyde Pierce and all who come out sooner or later, because it's better than never coming out at all (isn't that right, Liberace?).
Been there, done that, bought the soundtrack!
Actually it IS easy to put yourself in someone else shoes --
especially today. Being out, or as I prefer to refer to it living a normal life is essential. Why? Because our very lives depend upon it. I've just written an entry on my blog about the ever-closeted Anderson Cooper doing a CNN segment about the out and murdered Lawrence King. Lawrence King had more guts than Anderson Cooper will ever have. His murder should be as important to the LBGT communities as the lynching of Emmett Till is to all African-Americans. But something tells me it won't be. We have a million excuses for why "That's not me. I'm straight-acting / straight-appearing. Nobody knows I'm gay and coming out is a very personal choice."
Unh-hunh.
VIVA DOOGIE!
anderson cooper...
there are those who feel anderson shouldn't/would not be able to come out because he travels to places where homosexuality could mean your life. (middle eastern places or what have you...)
another thing - - It's fine that NPH finally decided to publically come out, but didn't he come out from pressure of some sort?
now, i believe THAT has to stop. the "forcing" of coming out. People should do what they wanna do when they feel ready...whether they're coming out, or taking a trip across the world. i mean, it makes me really mad when i read stuff about perez hilton practically shouting for X star to come out already...then the rumors start, and bam...they basically have no other choice. also, some stars are also scared of being stereotyped....that's changing a bit....but eh....we're not quite there yet.
"Coming out" should go the way of disco.
"The bottom line is that coming out as gay – actually saying the words clearly, and for the record – is the single most powerful tool we have to achieve equality."
This is sooo 1970s. The fact of the matter is that as long as you specifically announce your sexual orientation with "I'm gay", you perpetuate the notion that everyone is heterosexual unless announced otherwise. Heterosexual people don't announce their heterosexuality as such, they just introduce their girlfriend or wife as such.
Likewise, the ideal way for gays should be to introduce their boyfriend or spouse as such and let everyone draw their own conclusion. This is the way it would be in a society where homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality, and the best way to create such a society is to start living it.
Therefore, I congratulate Jodie Foster for her natural, genuine, non-forced way of sharing with us her love for her partner. That makes me more proud of her than of some attention-seeking media whore going to People magazine for that oh-so-important coming out interview, or worse, going to Advocate magazine to kiss the rings of the Chief Muftis of the gay "community".
I fully agree that coming
"Natural, general non-forced way"? Oh Prunella!
"there are those who feel anderson shouldn't/would not be able to come out because he travels to places where homosexuality could mean your life."
You mean Oxnard?
In the immortal words of Rita Mae Brown "I've heard all your excuses and they're all shit."
eh...
oxnard? well, anyway...i am just saying that's what i've heard. EH
He's referring to the Lawrence King murder...
...in Oxnard, CA.
Yes, gays are still being targeted and killed even in western society but that doesn't invalidate what you wrote earlier about AC's possible reasons for not "officially" coming out.
The reality...
...is that there can be serious consequences for blasting the figurative closet door wide open.
Recognizably, Martin Luther King & Malcom X blasted through the doors of civil rights with unfortunate consequenses.
Matthew Shepherd & Lawrence King were two young men living lives unjustifiably ended, because some people weren't ready.
One of my family members outed me to my mother a few months back & she for all intents and purposes disowned me, until a hospital scare this week, caused her to see her son with new eyes.
The closet is one of those expansive concepts that, for many, represents a significant struggle between life and death.
Before snap judgments are made about the type of visibility that is appropriate for the community, consideration needs to be given to the full impact visibility has on the individual.
Being out
I agree. Being out is personal and does not always work to the best.
I came out to my family about 20 years ago, as a result the only members of my family that even talk to me are my mother father and sister, but when I was hospitalized for over 3 weeks, the only person to to the hosp. was my father, and he only stayed long enough to drop off something I needed.
My point is many people know what will happen to thier lives when they come out, and many don't. It's a very hard and scary decision, even when you aren't in the limelight.
Dennis
This is all really amazing
I'm 61 years old. Back at the dawn of the modern gay rights movement (ie. Stonewall) being "out" was wildly avant-garde. Gays and lesbians outside the movement couldn't believe that my comrades and I were "admitting" to being gay. They had all manner of explanations for why they were staying firmly locked in the closet, few of which had to to with personal safety. Rather they pivoted on their internalized self-loathing. That's why whenever I hear praise for Jodie Foster being ever-so "dignified" I WANT TO VOMIT AND NEVER STOP!!!!! Same shit. New bag.
The pace is certainly quickening. We've gone from "expecting" stars to be out to "demanding" it -- just like that. Not so long ago bearding-up wasn't simply "the Rule" it was The Law. No star of yore would have run around with his boyfriend the way Doogie did prior to the Big Offical Announcement. Likewise Jodie would have been on her second "New York Marriage" by now.
Times change, but the bullshit remains the same.
Now everybody get out your DVDs of A Star is Born, go to the kinescope of opening night at the Pantages Theater and take very special note of Raymond Burr, his beard for the evening and the drop-dead-gorgeous sailor he's just picked up. That was Hollywood back then, boys and girls. It's not that way anymore.
Yard Work?
Out and Proud
As an aspiring actor in NYC during the late '90s, I auditioned for EVERY gay role I could, hoping to become one of the first "out and proud." My agent at the time, (also a gay man) said to me, "You're not gonna get up on your gay soap box everytime I send you out for something, are you?"
Needless to say, I rarely got called in for a GAY role despite mentioning I'm "of the persuasion." I saw the revival of Larry Kramer's THE NORMAL HEART get cast (by a gay casting director) with ALL straight actors "except for one or two." A friend in the show told me that Larry Kramer himself "got a kick out of it."
To me it seems there's something about the gays "having power" over the straights when it comes to holding the strings in Hollywood that's akin to revenge... Except the straight actors are the ones benefiting! Will we ever get over the fact that it's been "us vs. them" since the days of junior high school?
Thanks for this article... As I've long been "out" to family and friends, I just added "gay" under "orientation" on my MySpace profile. "In a relationship" is simply not enough to suffice anymore.
BAND FAGS! a novel by Frank Anthony Polito
Kensington Books/ISBN: 978-0-7582-2265-7/$15.00
available June 2008
www.bandfags.com
Re: Anderson Cooper
In the past week two things have happened that really made me consider Anderson to be "out" if not ever officially announcing it.
1) I saw that a lunch date with Anderson is "for sale" at the Bailey House's 20th Annual Auction. (He's listed as "priceless" but last year he apparently went for $21,000!) Of course, offering to help raise money for a NY AIDS charity doesn't automatically make him gay, but I think it might be a hint.
from: http://baileyhouse.org/auction/1_0.html#
2) He thoughtfully (and rightfully) covered the murder of the young gay boy, Lawrence King. In his blog Anderson wrote, "Tonight...we are focusing on a story that hasn’t received the attention it deserves... If this had been an African-American student bullied by a teenage skinhead would it have received more attention? Would school officials have taken it more seriously if it had been a Christian campus leader attacked by another student because of his/her religious beliefs? I don’t have the answers to those questions, but I do think they are worth asking."
from:
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/02/25/when-does-bullying-become-a-hate-crime/
Again, reporting the murder doesn't automatically make him gay, but it does show he at least keeps tabs in gay news, right? I didn't see anyone else covering this tragedy.
Maybe it's wishful thinking and I'm reading way too much in to things. Either way, he's an awe-inspiring man.
This is so American
America is so self-obsessed and celebrity-obsessed. Why isn't the obvious question being asked - why is America so backwards among first world nations in terms of gay rights and respect for gays as people? If the answer for advancing a gay agenda is getting celebrity endorsements for homosexuality as if it were pudding pops then why was the US with its massive celebrity machine, Ellen, Rosie Odonnell, legions of publicly gay-sympathetic stars, etc busy voting to have state constitutions forbid gay marriage while Canada with no star machine and talent that flees to Hollywood was nationally legalizing gay marriage? I haven't noticed gay actors getting married up here in Canada bathed in the light of paparazzi flashbulbs, but Members of Parliament and Cabinet Ministers (people of actual substance) have certainly been getting married to their gay male partners without media mania or controversy. Gays once faced criminal sanctions and oppression in Canada and other first world nations where things are now improved far far beyond the situation in America, and it definitely is not celebrities that made the difference between us and you.
There's something much broader that needs to be addressed in American culture in my opinion, well, a few things actually since the idea that celebrities can somehow solve everybody's problems is pretty ridiculous and destructive too. I think Americans don't embrace differences in sexuality because of the things they are raised to be proud of, the navel gazing nature of America that never looks outside its own borders for a way of doing things, and the American identity. America is the melting pot, and everybody is expected to conform whether it is "sexual deviants", immigrants trying to sing the national anthem in their native Spanish, or American gay media trying to pressure gay celebrities to accept their dictates on how they must behave. There's pride in conquering other people and forcing things to be done your way instead of compromise, respect and fostering diversity. That's something that isn't handled be celebrity endorsement, it's something that requires a major shift in perception if it is to change. Changes in fundamental values taught to children.
Instead of just highlighting the sustained careers of a few of the celebrities that have come out to American audiences to support the point of the article, it would also be worth addressing the bitterness and near forgotten status of celebrities like Rupert Everett and Chad Allen who credit being out to the American media as destroying their American career prospects. Are Everett and Allen inspiring to gay US kids? I doubt it because gay US kids don't see them or know them. Is celebrity endorsement really so precious that people have to fall on the proverbial sword whether they want to or not for quite possibly no productive result?
"Hints"? You're satisfied with "Hints"?
Do straights"hint" about their sexual and/or romantic interests?
I THINK NOT!
Take the training wheels off, dear, and get with the program!
To an extent, I agree...
...with Matt B. Canadians have an entirely different view of themselves and the world. I think that the American ego is it's own worst enemy. My American friends are the first to agree with me. Absolutely it's not up to the celebreties to change the nation's attitude toward 10% of it's population. It is up to every single enlightened person to do their part. It's not just about standing up and saying "I am gay". It's about saying "he or she is great and btw he or she is gay" That is a very simplistic way of saying everyone has to stand up for eveyone else's rights, not just one's own special interest group.
As for Anderson Cooper, I don't even think he is really in the closet. He has made so many comments and gestures over the years. He has won GLAAD awards, does gay interest stories often, even thanked AE for putting him on the Hot 100 list even though he has "chicken legs". He didn't need to respond. He has been photographed at a dog show with Julio, who was reported to have been his boyfriend for years. The Details articles he wrote are sort of gay in tone, never takes a beard to any of the dinners or events. I think that possibly it is in his CNN contract not to say. Would anyone risk 5 million dollars to say 3 little words? He is a very self-deprecating person, and may not think that his publicly making a statement would have that positive an impact. (jeez- he should be Canadian)
I may be wrong (that's the Canadian in me talking)
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
Would anyone risk 5 million dollars to say 3 little words?
5 million dollars to anderson cooper is a drop in the bucket. He's the heir to the Vanderbilt fortune.
Not so much....
From what I read, there is no Vanderbilt fortune. Gloria's mother spent most of it when Gloria was a little girl. It's all in the biography called "Little Gloria- Happy at Last". But whatever. It's his choice. And he has never denied being gay or said anything derogatory about gay people, and he has always supported gay issues.
I say we take the warning labels off everything and let nature take it's course.
Now its "Comments and Gestures"!
CRUMBS, PEOPLE CRUMBS!!!!!
Do FUCKING CRUMBS make you proud to be who you are?
As fabulous as it is to see
As fabulous as it is to see people spew vitriol on either side of this argument, at the end of the day I see a decided lack of empathy from people who should, frankly, know better. There's a wonderful book out there about what it means to be a homosexual man in this day and age. It's called The Velvet Rage: Overcoming the Pain of Growing up Gay in a Straight Man's world and it's written by Alan Downs.
In the book he discusses the three essential stages of the coming out process, as defined by feelings of shame, anger and fear. "The first stae is 'Overwhelmed by Shame,' and includes that period of tiome when he remained 'in the closet' and fearful of his own sexuality. The second stage is 'Compensating for Shame' and describes the gay man's attempt to neutralize his shame by being more succesful, outrageous, fabulous, beautiful or masculine. During this stage he may take on many sexual partners in his attempt to make himself feel attractive, sexy, loved--in short, less shameful.
The final stage is 'Discovering Authenticity.' Not all gay men progress out of the previous two stages, but those who do begin to build a life that is based upon their own passions and values rather than proving to themselves that they are desirable and lovable."
I know for a fact that all gay men can empathize with feelings of intense shame, of being less-than the others around us. The coping mechanisms for this vary wildly, but there is a reason why gay men are stereotypically: catty, fabulous, creative, sarcastic etc... The intense drive that so many gay men experience is a direct result of attempting to move out of the less-than position into the one-up position. Our society has done more than just tell us that we're wrong for loving other men, it's literally instilled that knowledge inside of us.
Knowing this, knowing the pain and anger and fear and shame and guilt that lurks within each of us, or at the least has lurked within us, how can anyone judge these people? Coming out is not just a singular process, it's something that has to happen every second of every day in every single way. I get tired of constantly coming out, of "being gay," and I'm just 22 years-old, not famous and with a massive plate full of issues. I can only imagine the bizarre mixture of pressure and exquisite torture that comes along with being famous and queer. We just saw a very talented and handsome young actor commit suicide, or rather die as a result of his own suicidal behavior. Heath Ledger had reached a point where he just simply did not care anymore, and how many of us would give our arm and a leg to have his level of fame and fortune?
I agree that gay stars should come out, that in doing so they have a chance to accomplish something that will reduce the shame and pain future generations of queer boys will have to endure. Yet at the same time, I cannot abide this dismissal of their own individual pain and struggles. Simply because you do not see it, does not mean it is not there. I mean, just think about this: how many of these famous people are famous because their desire for success and ability to succeed are really symptoms of intense feelings of shame and being worthless? And yet you want them to render themselves vulnerable to an entire population and society that instilled those very beliefs within them? I'm not trying to make excuses, but I am defending the individuals right to their own pain and to do what is best for them.
Gay men (and all other queers, but I focus on the men for this argument) are wounded children. How many completely functional and healthy gay adults do you know? Now compare that to how many adapted and wounded gay men you know. If you know more of the former than the latter, call me and introduce me.
I don't know if anyone will even read this or take it to heart, but I hope some people do. This world doesn't need more judgement and negativity, that's why people are afraid to be out to begin with. Love and understanding are the only things that will heal us all, gay, straight, bisexual, male, female or somewhere in between. So just remember, you don't have to put yourself in their shoes, because your own shoes have walked a very similar path. Just remember that each and every person feels things differently, and that those who are driven for success frequently attain success equivalent to their drive, and that drive corresponds to how worthless they may truly think they are.
That's my 2 cents. And I really do reccomend The Velvet Rage for anyone who is interested in reading about gay psychology.
Must be a crappy book...
"I know for a fact that all gay men can empathize with feelings of intense shame"
You know for a fact something about ALL gay men? Are you omniscient? What a pompous statement to make.
Raised in a secular household with gay people among relatives, I never felt any "shame" for liking men. I understood that I would have to stay clear of certain homophobic morons in life, but that was ok for me.
And thus the experience of growing up gay is different from person to person, depending on family background and own personality. Some persons will indeed have feelings of shame, others have no problems with it.
The idea that you, or the author of that book you mention, would lump all gay men together and assume that they all have the exact same experiences and emotional trials in life is preposterous and indicates a very collectivist mode of thinking.
For someone who just
For someone who just accused me of pomposity, you seem to lack a certain amount of reading comprehension. To empathize with someone is to have an understanding of their emotional state because of your own experience with and exposure to that emotion, within the realm of your existence. I simply say that all gay men can empathize with feelings of intense shame, because all people feel ashamed at various points in their life, and instead of saying that all people can empathize I said gay men because this is a thread aboutthe attitude of gay men towards men still in the closet. If you have made it through the entirety of your existence without once feeling an inordinate amount of shame, either you're fucked up beyond your ability to recognize, or you're the luckiest son of a gun in the world. I did not say that all gay men experience intense shame from being gay, simply that all of them should be able to empathize with those who have felt that way because as gay men we are different from others, and no matter how warm and loving your family may be, society is not.
I do find it interesting that you would desire to attack me over this statement when you quite clearly misunderstood what I wrote. What's more, the fact that you judged the book as "crappy" when you haven't even read it, and simply because the small portion of it that I wrote about does not directly apply to you, seems rather more than a touch arrogant. It actually seems like you're simply looking to pick a fight or try and slander the entire post by nitpicking at one specific area. I don't really appreciate such tactics, but if that's not your intent then I apologize, because it's pretty damn easy to be the bigger man and simply ask questions rather than throwing out judgements. The idea that you somehow know so much more about the gay experience than a gay therapist with a phd who's spent the last few decades engaging homosexual men in dialogue and giving them actual tools to solve their problems, especially when you say right off the bat that your experience is completely without any shame for your same-sex attraction when you have to know that for a lot of gay men that's a fantasy instead of reality, is about as preposterous a statement as I can think of.
You're still asking too much.
"instead of saying that all people can empathize I said gay men because this is a thread about the attitude of gay men towards men still in the closet."
It's still wrong. Not everyone has the ability to feel empathy to begin with, and not everyone can empathize with someone ashamed of something entirely different --- a gay man ashamed of his sexuality is no more likely to empathize with someone ashamed of his body weight.
"I did not say that all gay men experience intense shame from being gay, simply that all of them should be able to empathize"
Now you say all of them "should", a normative statement. Earlier you said that you know for a fact that all of them "can". We might agree that it's virtuous to feel empathy and therefore all of them SHOULD, but I deny that someone who's never felt ashamed of being gay can genuinely feel empathy for someone who does. Just because everyone has felt ashamed for SOMETHING in their lives doesn't mean that they can apply that experience to any other situation.
"What's more, the fact that you judged the book as "crappy" when you haven't even read it"
You can judge a book by its premises. It says in the summary that "The inevitable byproduct of growing up gay in a straight man's world, the experience of shame in childhood and adolescence sends a boy the message that he is other and that he is worthless." In other words, the author believes that it's inevitable that every gay man will feel ashamed of being gay. And he's wrong.
"The idea that you somehow know so much more about the gay experience"
I said the exact opposite. I argue that there is no such thing as "the" gay experience, because everyone's experience is different, and that anyone who would lump all gay people together is stuck in a collectivist mode of thinking. Neither I nor an experienced psychologist may make deterministic claims about what is "inevitable" and thus would apply to everyone. If he wants to distribute tips for those who are ashamed, fine. For him to assume that this is inevitable however, is preposterous.
Okay, so my statement
Okay, so my statement around the supposed capacity of gay men to empathize really pissed you off, it seems. I don't normally put disclaimers on statements like "all gay men can empathize except for those who cannot," because I believe the majority of homosexual men do experience shame and pain and anger at being gay, at one point or another in their lives. If a person cannot empathize, then they have other problems. When I said all gay men "should be able to empathize," I said the same thing as "can empathize." Yes, it is a normative statement, but I believe it to be true, perhaps it's only true for a certain majority, but you and David seem to be the first two gay men I've ever met who haven't experience certain negative emotions in conjunction with their sexuality. Frankly, it seems extremely odd to me given the society within which we grow up that it's possible, but kudos to you for apparently getting a free ticket out of emotional repurcussions from homophobia and social exclusion in your childhood.
So you seem to have a real problem with universal statements, do you run around and constantly tell people of for it? Especially when what the author says is that, to paraphrase, the result of growing up gay in this straight society is that the child is bombarded with messages of being wrong and shameful. Where in this does it say that the child necessarily feels those emotions? Rather he says that they are bombarded with feelings not their own, and in many men that is extremely warping, and hey, whaddyaknow, for a large, large number of gay men, the majority in fact, the book holds true. Psychological books are written for niches, but they also allow for a variety of experiences. The point of such a book is to create a psychological model that encompasses the majority of subjects in a certain realm. And the debate about the existence of a gay experience should really be saved for another thread, and it does pop up semi-frequently around here, but at the end of the day speaking about a gay experience has a certain validity if only because it is referred to and defined as the sum of experiences of gay men in America. It's not deterministic of anything beyond the average facts of life for a segment of the population.
But you are right, you did say the exact opposite of what I thought you wrote about the gay experience. My bad.
The problem with universal statements...
... is that few things in life a truly universal.
"but you and David seem to be the first two gay men I've ever met who haven't experience certain negative emotions in conjunction with their sexuality. "
Well, how many have you met? :) First of all, don't link me with David, because he's a pompous jackass.
I have met very few gay men who ever had negative emotions about that. The reason for that, I assume, is that we walk in different cultural backgrounds. Again, when you come from a secular family and most of the people in your community and your school are liberal or libertarian, my whole outlook on life will be a different one than the one I'm assuming you come from.
"author says that, to paraphrase, the result of growing up gay in this straight society is that the child is bombarded with messages of being wrong and shameful."
Bombarded? By whom? Outside of religion, I don't know where the topic regularly even comes up for it to be called a bombardment.
"Frankly, it seems extremely odd to me given the society within which we grow up that it's possible,"
It is possible because there just is not ONE American society. America is a hugely diverse country, and what is unthinkable in one part is taken for granted in another. You can grow up white having never met a black person. You can grow up never having met a fundamentalist Christian. You can grow up only knowing fundamentalist Christians. You can grow up never having met an atheist. You can grow up never encountering homophobia. You can grow up never encountering any gay-positive message whatsoever. Sure one experience may be more common than the other, but neither is universal, and implicitly labeling one experience "unrealistic" is indeed, pompous.
I know a woman who was suffering from work-related depression. The woman also was raped as a child. The therapist insisted that all her problems came from a suppressed trauma of the rape, because he thought no one who ever got raped can just get over that. So all therapy efforts were aimed at bringing out the supposed trauma. This was of course counterproductive, since it turned out she didn't have a trauma to begin with, and indeed worsened her depression, until she changed the therapist for one who treated her as an individual, not as a psychological archetype.
It's not a perfect analogy, but you get the point: just assuming that any gay person is a "wounded child" whose problems all come from the shame of being gay in a straight society is very dangerous, and replacing "all" with "most" while still insisting on that psychological archetype is not enough.
Universal statements
"Bombarded? By whom? Outside of religion, I don't know where the topic regularly even comes up for it to be called a bombardment."
I have to assume you live in very gay-friendly area then!
In New Jersey anti-gay jokes, comments and other speech are still quite common. Don't let the civil unions thing fool you. This state isn't as liberal as Jon Corzine would lead you to believe. When Jim McGreevy came out many of the local radio stations were positively boiling with derogatory remarks, speculations about which highway rest areas he's had sex in and much, much worse. Even still it's coming for radio DJ's around here to make jokes that are insulting to gays.
Likewise, it's still fairly common for kids to hear anti-gay taunts in school. Words like "gay" are still used to denote things that are lame. "Queer" and "faggot" are used to taunt kids that don't meet some standard.
And don't under-estimate the importance of religion. Just because an adult can do whatever they please as regards their choice of faith (or none at all), a lot of kids still grow up in homes where anti-gay religious values are aired fairly openly, or hear it in church.
This is not a gay-friendly politically correct country dude. It's still considered much more acceptable to speak negatively about gays in public forum than about, for example, Jews or blacks.
I apologize for linking you
I apologize for linking you with David. Unfortunately I was debating both of you at the same time, and even though you actually took the time to read through my points and refute/agree with them as you so chose, I actually wondered for a moment if David had created another profile just to lambast me. The difference in responses became rapidly clear, though.
I know that few, if any, things in this world are universal. And in many ways the human experience cannot be universal if only because each person's individual perception of reality differs ever so slightly, but enough to render each view distinct. Not to get too side-tracked into the philosophy of this argument, which is fascinating and stimulating in my opinion, but there are common factors. I, admittedly, do not have a wide circle of gay friends, spanning ages and races and income brackets. Mostly I know other college age queer boys who have parents that can afford to send them to small liberal arts colleges and club boys from USC (I go to school in Southern California, although I much prefer the scene in Seattle where my parents live) so that gives me a fairly narrow view of the gay world, and one that I'm well aware is extremely skewed.
But as Psyionycx said, anti-gay sentiments do not just appear in religion. I've been mocked my entire life for being gay, or at least until I got old enough to begin controlling the perceptions people around me had of me, which brought on entirely new sets of problems. Everyone who I have spoken to personally, however, has had similar feelings to my own, and this book explored them in a manner that captured the majority of my experience, even if I don't feel that I graft onto his idea of the three stages of acceptance. Most of my friends my age can empathize with this book's perspective and my own, so in my own version of the "gay experience" it does seem rather universal.
I know there is more than one American society, but aren't all those societies bound together by the inherent nature of being American? I know that the difference between being a first generation Latino family versus coming from a Wasp family of significant wealth who came over with the Mayflower resembles the distance stars are apart from one another in the universe. But continuing that analogy (is there a law of entropy in analogies? cuz there should be, because the further you pursue them the faster they break down) the relative distance between stars in our galaxy is insignificant from a certain perspective. There's individuation, but there's also commonalities. I guess what I'm saying is that I understand and accept your point, but that I still hold to the validity of the text and how it applies to my experience and the experiences and feelings of those around me.
Thanks for actually being willing to speak civilly to me and treat me like a fellow gay man, even if I do resent being called pompous.
NEED ATHLITES TO COME OUT!
I think rather then having more gay actors/ess come out what we really need is some active gay athletes in the NFL, NBA, and NHL to come out and show we can play the "manly" sports just like everyone else. Or better yet a gay boxer or MMA fighter come out and show that we can be as tough as anyone else. I would love to hear a fighter thank his boyfriend after winning just as the straight guys thank their girlfriends and wives. That would do more to improve our image and change the impression that people have of gays then just another gay actor coming out.
Who is that gay kick-boxer
It was Towleroad...
I almost never read comments
Three Stages? How about two? In the closet -- and out of it.
"I know for a fact that all gay men can empathize with feelings of intense shame, of being less-than the others around us."
Include me out of your "all," Jacob. And I know I'm not alone in this.
"Coming out is not just a singular process, it's something that has to happen every second of every day in every single way. I get tired of constantly coming out, of "being gay," and I'm just 22 years-old, not famous and with a massive plate full of issues. I can only imagine the bizarre mixture of pressure and exquisite torture that comes along with being famous and queer."
Famous Queers aren't the 100 Neediest Cases, Jacob. Do you really think Kevin Spacey is worse off than you are? He got his cellphone stolen.
LAWRENCE KING WAS SHOT TWICE IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD!
"This world doesn't need more judgement and negativity"
It doesn't get nearly enough!
"We just saw a very talented and handsome young actor commit suicide, or rather die as a result of his own suicidal behavior. Heath Ledger had reached a point where he just simply did not care anymore, and how many of us would give our arm and a leg to have his level of fame and fortune? "
Heath Ledger was straight, dear. We have no way of knowing what personal troubles may haveled to his death but gayness wasn not one of them. The fact that your thoughts about being gay drive you to invoke Heath Ledger -- merely because he played a closeted gay man in a grotesquely overpraised tearjerker written and directed by straights yet embraced by gays as if it were life itself -- shows you're still at what you'd call "Stage One."
I'm wavering between
I'm wavering between replying to you in the same dismissive and patronizing tone you used with me, but instead I think I'll try and maintain a level of civility you seem incapable of. If you cannot empathize with feelings of intense shame, or being less-than others, then you have far more problems than I can begin to deal with. All human beings experience shame, ergo all human beings should be able to empathize. And I cannot "include [you] out of" anything, because that just isn't how the English language works.
Famous queers are still queers. Queer people are statistically one of the most at risk groups in our nation for pshychological issues and trauma, gay male teen suicides account for nearly 50% of all male teen suicides, a number greatly out of proportion for our presence in the population. Dismissing the feelings and problems people face simply because they are famous boggles my mind. I know Heath Ledger was straight, the point was that famous people can suffer just as much as any "regular" person. I mean, first you tell me that I must "include you out" because I don't know your thought process, and than you proceed to tell me what I think and why I think it? What's more, I detest this idea that famous people are somehow better and different than us, they are simply people who have attained a level of notierity that I think, happily, we don't have to deal with. The fact that you dismiss my entire argument with barely logical, and hypocritical rhetoric is both dismaying and frustrating.
And even if I am still at stage one, who are you to judge me for that? Are you telling me that because I may not still be completely comfortable with my sexuality, that I in point of fact am someone who suffers from intense shame and pain at being gay, makes me less able to have a coherent argument? Or even more, that it renders me incapable of having valid opinions on this issue? That's more than dismaying, it's disgusting. I can only hope that your eyes open up at some point. This world does not need more negativity and judgements, it needs understanding and compassion. The fact that you deny this and what's more, reject it, speaks volumes to me, but in the interest of not tainting the discourse, I'll end this post here.
Jacob's Ladder -- to the basement
"I'm wavering between replying to you in the same dismissive and patronizing tone you used with me, but instead I think I'll try and maintain a level of civility you seem incapable of."
Gee whiz, Jacob. Sorry I can't be a giant crying towel for ya.
"Famous queers are still queers. Queer people are statistically one of the most at risk groups in our nation for pshychological issues and trauma, gay male teen suicides account for nearly 50% of all male teen suicides, a number greatly out of proportion for our presence in the population."
So famous queers are traumatized teenagers forever? WHODATHUNKIT!
"I know Heath Ledger was straight, the point was that famous people can suffer just as much as any "regular" person."
So they would like you to believe. "I'm just a regular person like you," is the sell they constantly put out -- and SUCKERS like you are eager to buy it.
"And even if I am still at stage one, who are you to judge me for that? "
A gay activist and professional journalist of over forty years experience. You should be very thankful I'm willing to judge you, rather than ignore you as a pompous twerp.
I'm sorry you can't be a
I'm sorry you can't be a giant crying towel either--oh wait, I meant a civil person interested in an actual discourse instead of a bunch of antagonistic and sarcastic comments being thrown at someone over the internet. It's very obvious to me that your time as a gay activist and professional journalist has well prepared you to make sound and correct arguments and debate points with flair and without idiot rhetoric. When you called me a "sucker" I was blown away by the force of your logic and ability communicate both articulately and compassionately. I can only imagine that your career has been long and fruitful given your incredible ability to write sincerely.
My incredibly biting sarcasm aside (yeah, I wish). People are people. Gay people who are traumatized stay traumatized, no matter what happens to them afterwards, unless they get the care and assistance they need to release those inner demons. So yeah, it does stick around, and they are traumatized children and teenagers forever. That's why PTSD is so big these days, and why they use EMDR and Somatic Experiencing to cope with it. I just came from a 5 week stay at a psychiatric hospital because a few years ago I got sexually assaulted for being gay at my school, and recieved no support from the administration of my circle of
"friends" at the college. That experience screwed me over. One of the reasons I brought up Heath Ledge is because I actually did empathize with him, if only because I make up that he got so screwed up on all those drugs because he felt an anguish similar to my own, if for wildly different reasons, or maybe not, I don't know. But the drugs he had in his system are drugs I've had in my own (do not mix benzo's and oxy, ever) and the fact that he died from it simply because he did not care rang a chord within me. So yeah, they are just like regular people, and anyone who buys the whole "celebrities are different" than us shtick needs their head checked. I'd like to see the differences pointed out and labeled, where do their genetics differ from ours, where do their tastes, their desires, their flaws, their general humanity differ so wildly from ours that you can justify yourself calling me a sucker. Answer some of these questions and hell, I might even change my mind.
I should be thankful that you're wiling to judge me? I think you should be thankful I'm willing to continue this conversation with you despite your inability to come up with halfway rational arguments. And I apologize, half-heartedly, for the sarcasm that began this page, but I'm not going to take it out because I do feel anger about what you've written.
Please keep the comments civil
"What a story. Everything but the bloodhounds
yappin at her rear end."
"I just came from a 5 week stay at a psychiatric hospital because a few years ago I got sexually assaulted for being gay at my school, and recieved no support from the administration of my circle of
"friends" at the college. That experience screwed me over."
No shit.
"One of the reasons I brought up Heath Ledge is because I actually did empathize with him, if only because I make up that he got so screwed up on all those drugs because he felt an anguish similar to my own, if for wildly different reasons, or maybe not, I don't know. But the drugs he had in his system are drugs I've had in my own (do not mix benzo's and oxy, ever) and the fact that he died from it simply because he did not care rang a chord within me. "
Really? How do you know he "did not care"? How do you know anything about him at all? You don't.
How do we know anything about you? You're pixels on a screen.
Me you can "Google."
"I think you should be thankful I'm willing to continue this conversation with you despite your inability to come up with halfway rational arguments. And I apologize, half-heartedly, for the sarcasm that began this page, but I'm not going to take it out because I do feel anger about what you've written."
That's a song cue if I ever heard one. Take it away Randy!
"When Karl Marx was a boy
He took a hard look around
He saw people were starving all over the place
While others were painting the town (buh, buh, buh)
The public spirited boy
Became a public spirited man
So he worked very hard and he read everything
Until he came up with a plan
There'll be no exploitation
Of the worker or his kin
No discrimination 'cause the color of your skin
No more private property
It would not be allowed
No one could rise too high
No one could sink too low
Or go under completely like some we all know
If Marx were living today
He'd be rolling around in his grave
And if I had him here in my mansion on the hill
I'd tell him a story t'would give his old heart a chill
It's something that happened to me
I'd say, Karl I recently stumbled
Into a new family
With two little children in school
Where all little children should be
I went to the orientation
All the young mommies were there
Karl, you never have seen such a glorious sight
As these beautiful women arrayed for the night
Just like countesses, empresses, movie stars and queens
And they'd come there with men much like me
Froggish men, unpleasant to see
Were you to kiss one, Karl
Nary a prince would there be
Oh Karl the world isn't fair
It isn't and never will be
They tried out your plan
It brought misery instead
If you'd seen how they worked it
You'd be glad you were dead
Just like I'm glad I'm living in the land of the free
Where the rich just get richer
And the poor you don't ever have to see
It would depress us, Karl
Because we care
That the world still isn't fair"
I do not enjoy the way you
I do not enjoy the way you skirt around the points I make and try to pick your way through them sideways. I said that what I made up about Ledger's death and the drugs in his system is that he abused those drugs because he didn't care. You're right, I don't know anything for a fact, but I didn't say that I did. I said "I made up that" which means that I thought it, or even, if you will, imagined it, because of certain paralells in my own life.
And as to your point about me just being pixels on a screen, I have no idea what point you are trying to even accomplish. Because I'm not (yet) an accredited writer there's no way I can offer valid and cogent arguments, or because if you google my name you'd only come up with my facebook profile? Well, you have succeeded in dragging me completely off course from the debate, and I think I'm finished talking to you about this.
You forgot the "Harumpf"!
I'm curious as to what the
I'm curious as to what the reaction will be when a certain actor in a gay storyline on a certain show eventually comes out, especially after previously telling the press that he's straight.
Are you talking "Nuke" syrus?
Comin Out
Three words
Religious Right, American Family ASSociation, Conservatives.
I live in Canada and have more straight friends than gay friends. All my straight friends know I'm gay and some knew it when they met me so I did not have to come out. They all accept me. My family still does not know since I don't feel it is necessary to tell them yet. They may know but don't say anything. I don't see much of them anyway. We aren't a close family.
The reason I started with I live in Canada is because we don't seem to have the same problems with the religious people all that much. Like I said about my friends: one is christian, one is Orthodox Christian and the others are non denominational and 1 is Muslim. My mother was Catholic but I never came out to her and I don't think she would have rejected me since she did not have a problem with Steven on Dynasty and that was her favourite show.
If the bible was changed to say that homosexuality is OK instead of what it was changed to say recently that cause a major firestorm then people's views MIGHT change but I doubt it. I myself am Wiccan and in the Wiccan faith, homosexuality is accepted more or less.
I have never experienced shame of being gay growing up. I always knew what I wanted (MEN!!!) and NEVER even tried to get a girlfriend or giving in to peer pressure. I always knew I was different since I was 9 years old and never was confused about my gay identity. I may not be out to my family but I don't see them as much as I see my friends.
Live Long and Prosper
wow can I relate
I am a teacher who is out to my faculty but offically take a "I don't answer questions about my personal life" line when asked if I am gay(by students). I also sponser the gay straight alliance at my school and have been seen at Pride. So I am very much like these celebs and I don't like the message I end up sending. I felt the club, which was just starting up, needed to get started without the drama of a teacher coming out in class but this year I feel I will answer yes if asked. Honestly it is a hard situation to be in and I kind of knew it would come to this when I agreed to sponser the GSA. I am a little nervous about doing this but I feel it is the right thing for many of the same reasons stated in your post. Wish me luck lol.
edit in parenthesis as it was unclear before.
Also on edit. Clearly the kids would guess I am gay pretty easily given that info and I do know that as well. I don't expect to have to use smell salts to wake up fainting students upon telling them.
Relate?
"I am a teacher who is out to my faculty but offically take a "I don't answer questions about my personal life" line when asked if I am gay. I also sponser the gay straight alliance at my school and have been seen at Pride"
In other words, everyone knows you're gay.
Except, quite possibly, you.
I realize I should have editted better