In July of 1998, the groundbreaking sitcom Ellen was winding down, headed off to the blissful land of syndication. The loss of Ellen meant GLBT lead characters on broadcast television would be non-existent in a vast, bleak desert of breeders. Fortunately, that September a small but happy tidal wave called Will & Grace came triumphantly crashing over the horizon, landing on NBC’s must-see-TV line-up and quickly becoming the gayest hit show in the history of network television.

Criticized by the Queer as Folk crowd as a neutered and tepid version of our real lives, and mocked by a few edgy comedy writers for being “the same gay joke” over and over, Will & Grace nonetheless garnered enormous artistic respect within the Hollywood community. Nominated for 73 Emmys, winning 14, it also won the hearts of a broad-based American audience reaching peak ratings on a par with that other “must see” Thursday night hit, Friends.

The writing team responsible for this cultural phenomenon was David Kohan and Max Mutchnick, notable for their friendship since high school and the fact that one is straight, one gay. Mutchnick, the gay half of that partnership – and the model for Will & Grace’s Will Truman – recently spoke with AfterElton.com as part of our upcoming look into gay characters on primetime television.

In these excerpts from that conversation, Mutchnick looks at his own gay creations Will and Jack, talks gay internalized oppression, and gives us the dope on the new gay Kohan/Mutchnick pilot script picked up by ABC. He also reveals why he chose not to make Will & Grace too butt-f ... Um. We’ll let him say it.

AfterElton.com: This past fall GLAAD came out with their annual report on GLBT representation on the networks that was pretty grim. They did say some positive things about ABC, mentioning Ugly Betty, and the character of Kevin Walker on Brothers & Sisters.
Max Mutchnick: I recently came across some comments that Greg Berlanti [former Brothers & Sisters showrunner] gave about how once you’ve seen a show like Six Feet Under and you see the way that the gay characters are drawn on that show, you can no longer be behind that eight ball.

AfterElton.com: He actually said that in an interview he gave to AfterElton.com.
MM: I thought it was so interesting … I used to believe that Will & Grace was the litmus test. And I no longer think that that’s the case. And that’s because of guys like Alan Ball, but more recently Greg Berlanti, and of course Robbie Baitz [referring to Jon Robin Baitz, creator of Brothers & Sisters. Ball, the creator of Six Feel Under, Berlanti and Baitz all happen to be gay.]

from left to right: Alan Ball, Greg Berlanti, Jon Robin Baitz

AE: Greg said that one of the reasons he thought that Robbie Baitz had the balls, or even thought to write the gay character of Kevin Walker on Brothers & Sisters so explicitly was because he came from theater and wasn’t enmeshed in Hollywood attitudes.
MM: Yeah. He wasn’t using the internal oppression that I used to use in my everyday experience.

AE: Do you feel that that came into play as a writer with Will & Grace?
MM: Yeah. I think we said a lot, but I think we could have said a lot more.

AE: Originally Will and Grace were part of an ensemble which were mainly straight couples. Correct? And it was an executive who said - you know these are the two interesting characters?
MM: We [Mutchnick and writing partner Kohan] were given the assignment to write another heterosexual romantic comedy that they could turn into a franchise a la Mad About You. We went about creating a hip San Francisco couple that had two other couples that they hung with, and one of the couples was Will and Grace – who we of course understood the best of everybody we had written. [Former NBC president of entertainment] Warren Littlefield could see that and said, “You seem to understand and know that world. Why don’t you write that as your series?”

AE: [taking a moment to check tape recorder. Mutchnick hears his voice on playback]
MM: There’s my Bea Arthur [voice]. You know what my entire life has been? “Hello. This is information, how can I help you?” And then I say: “I’d like the Paramount Theater on Main street.” And she says to me: “There is no Paramount Theater Ma’am.” And I say: “I’m not a ma’am.” And then she says: “I didn’t call you a man, Miss.” I keep having this exchange over and over again.

AE: [laughing] Well, there’s your next little sample of sitcom dialogue.
MM: Exactly.