Photo credit: Greg Trott/Getty Images
AE: The consequences being…?
BC: Either that the player is ostracized or that somebody tries to hurt them, whatever that might be. There’s a pretty powerful culture at work within clubhouses and locker rooms in male team sports.
AE: A pretty powerful culture of…?
BC: Of hyper-heterosexuality.
AE: Despite the fact that clearly there are many gay athletes.
BC: Yes. How many, I don’t know. But obviously many, many.
The other thing that I’ve always felt about this is, I’m sympathetic to a gay athlete in this circumstance: While it shouldn’t matter what someone’s sexuality is as long as they conduct themselves as a responsible human being, we know that in 2008 and up until now, if someone declares themselves gay, their sexuality would be become an issue even among those who think of themselves as sympathetic. It would tend to be noted more, and be more front and center than for the heterosexual person who doesn’t have to proclaim that they’re heterosexual because that’s expected to be the case.
So the heterosexual person’s sexuality, generally speaking, becomes just a part of a larger persona. Whereas the gay person’s sexuality becomes a definition.
AE: Does that necessarily have to be true?
BC: Doesn’t have to be true, and it shouldn’t be true. But you could understand that somebody who is trying to compete and hold onto their job - and most athletes are not superstars - there’s a lot of different pressures. They don’t want to have to deal with the additional celebrity baggage or the additional baggage of scrutiny that such a thing would bring to them. And on that level – I sympathize with them.
AE: Now have you heard this from gay athletes, behind the scenes off the record?
BC: Yeah, once or twice I have. But I also just infer that.
AE: But do you feel that that is an inaccurate assumption? I look at people who come out, and it almost always opens up and relaxes the person more so they’re able to be more themselves. And people – the media, the audience, the fans – take their cue from that person as to how much a part of their life that is.
BC: And I think you are correct. But that doesn’t invalidate the observation that a number of people might feel this way. Those who have come out that I’m aware of that were in team sports, all did it on their own timetable, when they felt comfortable, when they felt able to deal with it…
AE: After they were out of the sport….
BC: Almost always after they were out of the sport. So your premise hasn’t been tested in a team sport atmosphere by an active player that I’m aware of.
AE: What kind of a player do you think it’s going to take to do that?
BC: I don’t think it necessarily takes a star player. That was the premise of the Broadway show Take Me Out – it was a big star. That would be one interesting possibility. But another would be the guy’s just an average player. Just a guy on a team and maybe he gets traded or he’s waived or he’s picked up by somebody else. I think more so than his standing as a player, it would just take a person of guts and commitment to do it.
Retired NBC player John Amaechi
AE: Of the three team sports, I think the one you love the most is baseball. And doesn’t it seem to make sense that’s where maybe it would be easiest for someone to come out first?
BC: Maybe. I mean the NBA’s leadership is generally very progressive. I think football would be the hardest because that’s the most hyper macho culture with its own mythologies attached to it. I’d be guessing as to whether the NBA or baseball would be most hospitable. There would be difficulties attached to it no matter what sport. But I think it would be most difficult in football.
AE: Has a gay athlete ever discussed with you the possibility of coming out?
BC: Before he or she had?
AE: Or even if they then never did.
BC: No.
AE: What do you think it will take in sports coverage for there to more coverage of this issue, and more comfort covering this issue?
BC: I think we have to - especially those of us who see it as a valid issue and are sympathetic - I think we have to do more than what we have done. It’s a good topic. There are places that are good places to do it. HBO is a good place to do it. I don’t speak for them, but ESPN’s Outside the Lines which has done some stuff on this. The kind of magazine type shows that have the time and the format to treat it with some context and nuance and some real reporting. Those are the best places. And if the issue is hit harder in those places, maybe it will have some sort of trickle down effect.
I have always found Bob
I have always found Bob Costas to be an intelligent and likable guy with a talent for demystifying the world of sports for me. His comments here re-assert that belief. My only disagreement is that I believe it a middle-level athlete cannot break the lavender ceiling. It will take a top echelon star at the top of his game coming out to break that barrier. When these retired gay athletes came out it is sort of a big ho hum because they were never really big stars. If Joe Namath, Michael Jordan, or A-rod were to come out it would be a far more important story.
My belief is that athletes are all too often given a sense of entitlement for their abilities. Basically they are grown adults playing children's games. Given all the womanizing, violence, drugging, gambling, and other illegal activities that seem to be plaguing the sporting world I find it hard to look up to these men for any reason. These men do not understand the consequences of their actions and lack responsibility. The tought of a gay man sharing a locker room with them turns them into rat-frightened little girls. Are they that afraid of being objectified the way they objectify women? There are many gay men that are quite good at sports, and many more that are sports fans. But I guess they fail tio see and understand that.
Perhaps that is why athletes have the reputation of bing dunderheads.
INSIDEGUY
Wow
To be honest, I'm kind of suprised that Bob Costas would sit down and do an interview on gay issues. He's always seemed to be a thoughtful and intellgent guy when he's anchoring for the Olympics, but I figured a lot of that was just acting. This interview has made me realize that he is that kind of guy all the time, and I'm becoming more and more impressed with him. Congrats on scoring a major interview.
On the gay athletes issue, I think it's going to have to take a ground-up approach instead of waiting for some major sports star to come out. I think as more and more guys (and girls) realize they're gay in high school, they'll be okay with being gay and it won't be such a big deal. That'll lead to more and more athletes being out in college. Eventually, there is going to be an openly gay high school kid who is a great athlete in some sport and it won't be such a big deal once he's done with college and gets drafted for one of the major sports.
I like Bob
I think he handled these questions very respectfully. Rather than continuing to pursue NBC as a topic, I'd prefer to read more about Matthew. I don't follow sports much, but I think I read that Matthew is currently taking a bit of R&R, so he may not be available for interview. What about coverage of others in his life who might be able to give insight regarding Matthew's story? Is his coach available for comment? What about his parents? I'd rather hear from them as a way to keep his story front and center until he, himself is available for interviews.
I thought Bob Costas gave a very insightful statement regarding coming out in general (sports or otherwise) when he said:
Those last two sentences are exactly right. Speaking for myself, I'll know that progress towards equality has been accomplished when being gay is so commonly accepted that it's 'part of a larger persona' instead of 'a defintion'.
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-Sibelius
"It's curtains for you, Dr. Horrible. Lacy, wafting curtains..."
Very good interview
Costas is no dummy and he's been there while a whole lot of cultural sea changes have takn placethat the sports world has been slow to adjust to. Martina being out -- and the greatest woemn's tennis player the world has ever known -- was a biggie. And that didn't happen yesterday. Likewise Greg Louganis on the diving board and Rudy Galindo on ice skates. The Heterosexual Dictatorship is rapidly crumbling, and in pockets of active resistance like Sports resistance to change is slow to give way. But it will come if we keep up the pressure.
What gets me about Matthew Mitcham is that it's a huge story regardless of his sexuality. Here was a sport dominated by divers from the host country, and this kid comes out of left field and snags the gold. That alone demanded major coverage.
Or do the NBC jocks think divingg is "just too gay" overall to be taken seriously?
I suspect that's the realt story.
A good interview
with one of sports most articulate commentators. I agree with him about Football being the least likely sport to have an active athlete come out. I am betting on either Ice Hockey or Baseball in North America. The African-American culture still seems to be grappling with gays so I am not confident about Basketball.
Cheers
JBE
Nicely Done, but...
A good interview, and Costas comes off very well, which is to be expected. He's one of the good guys in sports coverage.
It would have been nice to see Mitcham featured more during NBC's coverage, especially given the gold medal. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the reality that there were thousands of athletes with stories, but particularly given the time delay between the events and US prime time, something - anything - might have been done.
But the real irritation, at least to me, is the complete omission of his family - hugging his mother and partner in the stands, etc. - that is almost invariably a part of the on the scene coverage. It's not that he didn't have his own prime time special, it's that when he got out of the pool to see his loved ones, the cameras were off - probably the only time that happened during the Olympics. We saw Torres' husband and kid. We saw myriad replayings of Phelps' mom's reactions to each gold medal. Why not a clip of Micham's mother and partner in the stands after the score for the final dive was posted?
Costas isn't the bad guy here, but I would have appreciated him ackowledging that particular issue, and that it was conspicuous by its omission.
Uh
...there were cameras that caught that moment when he went into the stands. AE had it on here and you can see it on YouTube as well. And I don't recall him going into the stands until after he'd received his gold medal. He was too busy being hugged in the back to make it into the stands right after his dive (not to mention being completely shocked). I've also seen some vid (God knows my brain can't recall where) from some Australian TV coverage that did show the reactions from his supporters. You just need to look for it. Also NBC has his gold medal ceremony and the entire competition streaming on their Olympic website (or @ least it did last week) and it shows what happened after he landed his final dive.
As for Torres, I'm pretty sure she's not married. That's her partner (at least he was @ the time of the Olympics).
Is nationalism a factor?
I wonder how much of it had to do with nationalism. The Americans bombed out in diving. You mentioned Phelps and Torres, both Americans. Micham is an Aussie. I didn't watch enough of the coverage to know how well they covered foreign athletes. Do you think this was a factor?
I'm not really satisfied by NBC's responses but I don't really expect more. We'll have to wait for the next Olympics or see how they cover gay athletes in the future.
I applaud the effort to get this interview with Costas but I believe someone else decided not to cover this aspect of Micham's story. I hope you can get an interview with Micham sometime.
Of course it is.
Show me the international sports event where 'nationalism' or 'patriotism' or whatever you wanna call it is NOT a factor in the media coverage.
If Michael Phelps had been a Hans Wurstmeister from Germany, I think NBC's coverage of his gold medals would have been slightly less fanatic.
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The Gays Of Daytime
Gay Paralympians
The Paralympics closed today. Has there been any coverage anywhere on openly gay Paralympians? I haven't seen any in the British media (although some of Team GB seem to be fairly obviously gay) and wondered if the topic is covered anywhere else in the world.
(Just done some research and Lee Pearson, the Briton who's won most gold medals in equestrian events is happily and openly gay. He's also been suggested as Sportsman of the year in the notably Conservative Daily Telegraph. If you want to find out more about him http://www.leepearson.co.uk/id2.html. The fact he's gay wasn't mentioned in any of the TV interviews with him that I saw, but it would be pretty hard to miss. And it was very nice that other gold-medal winners were holding him up as their hero and mentor.)
Classy Guy...
No Disrespect To Bob Costas. . .