The most important reason why I enjoy male/male pairings is because two sexy men together is just super HOT! I enjoy these pairings way more than male/female pairings. It's just something amazing and very different.
#2 -
I dont agree with the all straight women want to have sex with gay men theory. It isn't true at least for me. I mean, I do have crushes on some gay guys but I dont wish to pine over them or convert them. I know they aren't into me so I just laugh and move on. There are many hot straight guys out there as well so why bother? lol.
#3 -
I'm not a big fan of Adam Lambert first of all. But I did think the photoshoot was beautifully shot. That's all I have to say about it. I didn't find it offensive or anything.
I suppose there's a lot of reasons why women 'love gay men' and it depends on the woman. theres the superficial reasons; men are hot, two men are hotter. theres also the sense (and this applies pretty much to the entertainment industry only) that is more...exciting, just because we've yet to be desensitised from it. In television there can often be more of a chance for 'drama' which every women loves.
in the broader sense, in terms of friendships i think its just because we can relate. I've been close friends with one of my guy friends for a few years, but after he came out we became so much closer, just because we realised we had so much in common. I also know I can rely on him to tell me the truth about things like how i look etc. I'm more comfortable with him as opposed to my friends who are girls because i know that i can just give him a hug if i want, or ask him if I look weird in certain tops and he won't bat an eyelid. I also love that I can get a male perspective about a whole range of issues without feeling awkward about it.
Another part might be, and this is just speculation, that we're a little jealous of gay men, I mean personally men are sort of a mystery, i can't really understand how they think if you know what i mean. In gay couples I'm jealous that each one knows (more or less) how the other one feels or thinks. also I'm jealous that relationships without traditional gender roles are more achievable.
As for the whole 'vampires= gay thing' i have to say I disagree. I mean certainly vampires to me represent a more fluid and open sexuality but I would say thats about it.
After all the intelligent, witty and thoughtful comments from the women on this thread, we're doing the proper gay man 'respectful/sensitive' thing. It's your space and you're the important ones here.
Or we're all hiding behind the sofa in case a fight breaks out or the conversation turns... umm.. gynaecological... If that happens, we're off to the nearest bar. But we'll bring back chocolate ice cream when we come home:-)
Just wanted to echo the sentiments above. The women who come to this site ROCK to the power 10. It'd be such a different - duller - place without all of you. You only have to read this thread to see the truth of that. So thank you.
Just wanted to chime in like Darrien and Markie27 and say a BIG Thank you to all of you for taking the time to share your thoughts and stories with us. While impressed with everyone, a special note should go out to those making their first or second post to AE. Thanks for joining the fun and hope to hear more from you in the future. Really looking forward to the results of the survey.
This was my first time to comment and I am really new to the site. I found it by looking at all things Adam Lambert. However, when I started reading some of the comments I found them to be much more intelligent and well-thought out than on other sites. On most of the other sites it ends up in a pissing contest with everybody calling each other names and it gets ugly real fast. I also miss my best friend who died of AIDS three years ago and being around gay men again, even just on the net, makes me less lonely. Thanks again!
I was beginning to wonder if maybe you guys just weren't interested in our thoughts! Thanks for saying all those nice things! I for one feel like I know you (& a lot of the other regular posters) really well, reading the comments after every article (I spend WAY too many hours on this site!!)
I agree with your comment about getting to know the folks who regularly post on AE. I often read something and then think "I can't wait to see what (name) has to say about this."
i definitely love our lesbian, bisexual female friends too... it's just i want to extend my gratitude to our straight allies (and i hope there are even straight men around here) who support our cause (lgbt community)...
I have to echo the general consensus here: I would have picked d) all above for more than one answer. I guess I'm a cheat because I'm 17 :P
I am so, so relieved to know I am not the only one. It definitely isn't a surface-deep fascination.. for me personally, I find more often than not that I can relate to gay men more than... any other 'group.' That makes me some sort of third-generation-breed, in the sense that gay-men are generally thought to relate to women, and I relate to that...
I grew up with an abysmally low opinion of men. (haha, I really don't share this shit anywhere else D:) It stemmed from being objectified or downgraded or abused, in more ways than one, from men. I was always a little attracted to men, but it was blocked by my own stubborn-fire. I felt resentful and just... I felt like all men were on this sky-high pedestal I'd never be able to reach.
Then I dated a girl. That changed me in mind-bending ways. We're all human, and no one is an exception. Girls, I learned, can display the same ignorance and childishness , just in different ways. Not everyone is like this. And then I really started to appreciate men, gay men in partcular. Gay men felt safe, I guess. I quickly got into slash, all that anime yaoi stuff. It was combination of the hotness and the forbidden-factor, but even more significantly to me was the equality I saw in those relationships. That is so, so important to me, and I felt almost masochistic, loving and wanting that so much, but irony is a bitch.
I'm not quite like that now, but gay men have provided me with great role models... they don't have to 'sex it up' and be a total diva. Despite being at the bottom of the social-food chain for so very long, condemned, hurt... broken... in the last few decades gay men (again, I'm so majorly generalising; I know there are total dicks) have shone brighter with more bravery/courage/masculinity than their straight counterparts, who have just been disappointing to me. I have high standards apparently, but is a vocabulary too much to ask?
Just, you guys are such an inspiration to me. Love and harmony and all those cliches that have long been tainted with my own biting cynacism have started to become more attainable, more 'real.'
I also get giddy when I see two guys being fluffy with each other on tv, ngl. I just 'get it.' I'm 17 and ambitious and damnit, I want more gay boys D8
I think you're missing an answer- "It was offensive, because yet again a naked woman is no more than a prop." Even gay men "profit" from, and aren't safe from, the assumption that women's bodies are commodities.
Models are hired to be props, clothes hangers, part of the scenery of a photoshoot.
Any time an actor or a model does a photoshoot they are giving themselves over to the will and vision of the photographer.
That's what they are paid to do. It's their choice for which they are extremely well-compensated.
It is also very, very difficult work and it is no different than what every "Briefs Guy" displayed here on AfterElton does.
The model from this shoot was lovely. She was interviewed about the shoot and she seemed to have a wonderful time working with Adam and the photographer. They both said they had fun.
It feels like there is a lot of projection and undue judgement manifesting here.
This phenomenon isn't limited to TV and movies. Gay romance novels written by and for women are hugely popular as well, espeicially in the ebook market. Check out what's available under "gay romance" for Kindle and you'll see a large catalogue of gay cowboys, gay vampires, gay BDSM, gay lovers of all shapes, sizes and historical eras. Many of the authors are ex-slash fanfic writers who've moved into the professional arena in this sub-genre of romance.
While you're at it, google Amber Quill Press's "Allure" imprint, ManLoveRomance, Dreamspinner Press, Loose Id Publishing, Samhain Publishing and several other small, independent publishers for more female-written gay romances. It's a hot trend in the small press section of the publishing industry. if only traditional New York romance publishing (like Harlequin, Avon, St. Martin's and Berkley) would get over its fear of the 'phobic backlash and dip its arthiritic toes into the gay romance waters, they might find an answer to their current marketplace woes.
Thanks for the great article and the nifty poll. Have a great weekend!
Ask a questiona nd the women come pouring out of the woodwork like the stateroom scene in A Night at the Opera !
I knew a lot of women came to this site, but had no idea just how many.
Women have taken to prowling WeHo these days -- looking for an Adam Lambert and/or Neil Patrick Harris to call their own.
AS IF!
Meanwhile, this old gay man is utterly besotted with Matthew Goode -- with whom I chatted extemsively yesterday at the press event for A Single Man. He's tall, he's gorgeous, he's British, he's brilliant, he's Way Gay-Friendly --
and he's straight.
So I sympathize, ladies -- believe me I sympathize.
It's hot when women are portrayed as having some "masculine" characteristics (can I get some amens for Aeryn Sun and Kara Thrace?), and men as having some "feminine" characteristics.
GLBT characters tend to break gender steretypes, and therefore tend to be more attractive to me. Ianto Jones is my favorite because he kicks ass and dresses nicely, because he has boy-like attitudes but can be emotionally vulnerable with people he's involved with. If he were a real person, I'd trip him and accidentally fall underneath him with my clothes off.
I'm not a really good writer and don't usually succeed in making a point (and not being english native speaker doesn't really help) but i'd like to try because this topic concerns me.
I'm a bisexual women of 22 years old. A few years ago some of my friends wondered why I was so into gay stuff (my straight friends I mean), I talked about it to some of my bi and gay friends and we pretty much came up with all the answers discussed here. None of them were really wrong but it didn't explain everything either. Of course 2 guys together are hot just like 2 girls together are, the more there is the best it is. Also I've always been drawn to the cause even before I realized I was really bi. I also like male/male pairing because supposebly guys have a hard time talking about and showing feelings (it's a cliche but what isn't ?) and I relate to that because it's also my case.
Anyway, like I said I never found a good enough reason until someday someone made fun of me saying that I was really a gay guy and hid it from everyone (hey, even if I was, why would I hide it ?!). I really don't know if it sounds weird or not but the more I think about it the more I thnk it's a better reason than any of the others I thought about. What make me think that is that when I see 2 gay guys together (on real life, on TV, on movies or in books) I don't wanna them to be straight or I don't want a threesome with them. I seriously watch them like a straight woman would watch a straight couple and want to be with the guy. Emotionally or sexually speaking I relate to one of the gay guy AS one of the gay guy. I just don't do that with straight couple, for me they're just another story told.
And no, I don't want to change my gender, I never thought about a sex change or anything like that (alright, yes I did, but not seriously, otherwise I don't think I'd consider myself a bi woman). Although I usually don't talk about that too much to guys (or girls for that matter) who I like... it tends to make them run away... go figure.
I completely understand this - if you're screwed up, I'm right there with you! It's what I meant when I said in my own comment that I sometimes think,
bizarrely, that maybe I was a gay man in a previous life, because I
feel like I have a gay man inside me. And yet, I have never had any desire to change my sex. I wonder if perhaps this is indeed a real phenomenon, yet another manifestation of human sexuality: women who feel like gay men, like there is a gay man inside them, and yet who don't feel like...men...so it's not true transgenderism (if that's the correct noun).
It's not something I talk about often - or ever, really - with other people either, beyond talking about being attracted to all things gay, but it's there, and I know it. So I totally get what you're saying. I wonder how many women like us are out there?
You're just taking time to understand who you are and why you are. These things aren't fast or easy.
There's no approved 'fast-track' to being an official human being.
So long as you don't have fantasies about raping the crap out of people or abducting children or sniffing pine-scented cleaners (sorry, that's just my personal pet peeve), you're just someone who is taking time to understand what will make your life better.
Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy the journey you're taking to be who you want to be and savour it every step of the way. You can either look at what you're going through as a major problem or you can be grateful that you're being given an experience of human life that most other people don't get.
Please just enjoy the decisions you're making. You'll never have that opportunity again. It may feel painful for you at the moment, but it's a good thing. You're not going to end this experience a a bad person. At the very least you'll be wise. And at best, you'll be an A-bomb in bed :-)
first of all Hi! I've been lurking around for a while (since my torchwood fever started) but I only registered now to comment on this topic.
I agree with avery much must of the coments already made. honestly I thank a lot to the internert cause for long I didnt realised that so many women had the same opinion :P
In my case although I consider myselsf straigth I not only think 2 guys are hot together but I actually also think the same about 2 women. and I do like a lot of things (music, books, art, films, ect) that are considered "gay culture".
Anyway I dont like the m/m pairings just because of the hotness factor. in fiction, especially somne genres female characters and gender roles in hetero relashionships are very boring. I hate the typical romantica heroine in constant need of rescue. normally gay relations have more nteresting dinamic.
one think that I think a lot of people assume and that is completely wrong: women having fantsies about turning gay men straigth and about having sex with gay men. that for me is really stupid. do I belive that some women do have that fantasie (for instance some of adam crazy fans) but I think they are a minoraty.
anyway thinking that the fact that straigth men get turned one buy watching 2 women together I dont know whay so many people think the equivalent for straigth woman is strange.
and the vampire thing - wasnt that said by the same lame guy that said famles and gays are distroying science-fiction?
I became interested in male/male relationships in my early teens for one reason only: I found them hot. Since then it's become a bit more complicated. I realised that part of the reason I found this hot in the first place was, as other people here have said, because by having no female characters in the slash fiction I was reading and writing, I avoided being annoyed by the stereotypical representations of women I saw everywhere else. It also allowed me to have certain fantasies that I found uncomfortable if I imagined them with one man and one woman. Exploring my feelings for girls made me want to see same-sex relationships of any kind, lesbian or gay. Then I found out that queer culture is a lot more fun than straight culture, so when I became more politically aware, it seemed natural for me to get involved with queer issues. Hearing the word 'gay' used pejoratively countless times a day at school made me genuinely angry. I read this website mostly just because it is a good, well-written site that's fun to read. The gay perspective does make it more interesting, though, in that it's always good to see points of view that are not necessarily mainstream.
Of course, that first reason does still come to the fore quite often ;]
First of all, THANK YOU for asking! I know it's been said already, but the thanks bears repeating because hardly anyone ever asks. Lots of assumptions, not much asking, so this is pretty cool :)
I didn't answer all of the questions, mostly because many of them didn't provide an answer that described me in the least. So I'm summing up here.
I love my gay male friends for the same reason I love my straight male friends, my lesbian friends, my (admittedly few) straight female friends, etc: because I happen to click with those particular people. We get along, we have things in common, we share, we fight, we make up, we help each other out when we need it. End of story.
I follow GLBT news because I'm a passionate advocate of human rights, and there is a war on for GLBT rights right now. Entertainment news? Meh. Don't know, don't care. I don't watch much TV, and the media has mostly not heard of my favorite musicians (barring Radiohead, who they never know what to do with anyway). I have no opinions about Adam Lambert; I'm the only person on the planet who's never watched American Idol and never wanted to. But if I can get OT for a sec, y'all should check out Patrick Wolf. He's a fabulous musician AND fierce for the cause!
I love gay male romance in books, movies, etc for lots of reasons. "It's complicated," LOL. What a perfect answer :) I've always identified more with the male POV, for one thing. No idea why, but there it is. Also, two (or more *g*) men together is hot to me. I'm attracted to men, and I like to watch a good-looking man or ten no matter what they're doing, really. I'll watch surfing or gay porn or just sit on a bench in the park and man-watch, doesn't matter. Men are interesting to me. Straight men are interesting to me too, actually, but to be brutally honest I just don't care to watch/read about women in sexual situations. I don't know why, it just doesn't do it for me. I'll read straight romance, though it's not my favorite; I prefer the relationship dynamic between men. I'm also an author, and I write exclusively gay male romance. Again, it's what interests me. The sex interests me, the relationship dynamic interests me, the way men think and behave intersts me. Also, I suck at writing realistic female characters. My husband would say that's because I'm not a "real girl", LOL.
The vampire thing: I don't know where in the nine hells THAT came from, it's just ridiculous o_O
... I've never watched American Idol (or Canadian Idol!) ever either! And just for the record, Adam Lambert leaves me cold! I also agree with what you said about loving men, everything about them. I love just watching them too. And sex scenes between men & women (whether in books or TV, or movies) also leave me cold.
The appeal of American Idol is completely lost on me. Over the years I think I've seen a total of five minutes of the show. I quickly get bored and move on. As for the appeal of Adam Lambert - I don't get that either.
I don't get why people feel the need to analyze this so much. I've been active in writing and reading slash since 2002 and I've seen these questions come up time after time after time. I'm not saying this to tell you to knock it off, I'm saying this because I don't get why people A) think it's so noteworthy that women might like stuff about gay men and B) act like it needs all this study and research.
There's definitely not just one reason, at any rate. There's never any one reason why a group of people like anything. Take football. Some people like it because they care about the sport itself, some people like it because they want to support their state's team, some people like it because they have fun watching games with their friends, some people like it because they think some of the players are hot, some people like it because they're adreneline junkies.
Personally, I like well-written love stories and the gay ones tend to work harder at it than the straight ones. When it comes to slash, sometimes people just see the subtext and the potential without looking for it - that's what happened to me with Sirius and Remus in Harry Potter. I didn't even know there was such a thing as slash and I just got this vibe that they had some type of romantic history with each other.
I'm a lesbian, but I've always felt much more strongly identified with gay men and gay male culture, mostly because they're the people who made me feel welcome when I first came out. I live in the midwest and came out when I was in college, circa 1989. There was a Gay/Lesbian group on campus, and a Women's Studies department, both of which I duly joined. Almost to a woman, the wimmin of the lesbian community at the time made me feel completely unwelcome, telling me that since I liked dresses and makeup I must not really be a lesbian, and if I ever wanted to get a mullet and join a softball team then maybe they'd reconsider. On the other hand, the guys took me at my word, said they liked my dresses and makeup, and included me in their far more interesting, yet no less substantive activities (guerrilla filmmaking, AIDS benefit masquerades, etc). I didn't get many dates, but my feelings were at least acknowledged as legitimate, and I felt like a part of the gay community at last.
Things have improved, here and everywhere, but some things don't change, or at least don't change entirely. I find m/m romances to be more full of fun and sex and passion, whereas too much of the w/w stuff is still bogged down in festering oppression (I recently read a lesbian novel where the one and only sex scene was interrupted by a two page lecture on the power dynamic. Thanks). Women ARE oppressed and I do as much work as I can, socially and politically, to change whatever I can; what I've just never understood is why do we have to be so grim and joyless about it? The guys manage to make change and have fun too, and I'll always be grateful to them for showing me that queer life can be good life, and that I can be a part of that.
I'll probably get blasted by other lesbians for this, but you know what? I'm used to it.
She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain~ Louisa May Alcott
As a fellow lesbian, I could not agree more with your comment.
Although I have never really been active in gay organizations at school (mostly because I went to college at a young age and wasn't out yet) your experience still rings true to me (I went to a women's college so I should know ;P). I don't quite know how to put this, but I feel like lesbians are just...isolated. It seems like gay men have natural allies in straight women and welcome them to the cause whereas lesbians just kind of stick to themselves. One of the reasons I prefer this site to afterellen is that there are so many different kinds of people here and it seems to be pretty much just gay/bi women over there. I like the diversity over here.
What you say about m/m romance vs f/f romance is also totally true. I just feel like so many lesbian storylines fall flat (what few there are). One of the problems is the fact that female characters tend to be poorly written and few in number. I used to be into slash when I was younger (mostly anime stuff). I liked both male and female slash at the time but there simply were never enough cool female characters to make interesting pairings. I had to really stretch it sometimes. So I ended up going with male slash. Honestly, one of the things that made coming out as a lesbian so confusing for me was my interest in male slash--I thought it was weird that I should like it so much if I was a lesbian, because typically it was straight women who liked it because it was sexy. I eventually figured out that I just love all things queer.
Even now when I think about the TV shows I watch, there are just so many more men than women. Take Heroes, for example. If you want to slash women on that show it is pretty much just Claire and Tracy. All of the other women are either very minor characters or dead unless I forgot someone. Compare that to all the men: Peter, Nathan, Matt, Sylar, HRG, Mohinder, Ando and Hiro etc. Particularly in the case of Ando and Hiro who are really close friends--why aren't there more female/female friendships like that on TV? It seems like all too often women exist to be romantic interests for lead male characters. I can't think of many really good female friendships on TV.
I can't even really describe what it is about female characters that irritates me so much. They are just really boring. They don't get to be the goofy comic relief characters, the really socially awkward comic book nerds, the arrogant blowhards who are completely unaware of how ridiculous they are, the guy who thinks he is really slick but is actually a loser. It just seems like there are so many more 'male' character archetypes than female. The roles women get to play are limited. Couple that with the fact that the 'default' sex is always male and you get a limited number of crappy female characters. Sigh.
Finally I totally agree 1000% with your last point. Women need to stop trying so hard to be perfect and trying to make up for thousands of years of inequality in one lifetime and instead concentrate on just enjoying themselves. Who knows, if we all did that then we might actually make some progress!
One of the reasons I prefer this site to afterellen is that there are so many different kinds of people here and it seems to be pretty much just gay/bi women over there. I like the diversity over here
^ one reason i prefer this site more than afterellen is because there is wayyyyy too much going on all at once on that site. they have too many video blogs and the comments...omg, always so many and i get overwhelmed very easily. I just can't keep up. i also sometimes realize unlike here, they dont seem to focus on lesbian issues as much..i mean, of course, they do, but sometimes, they tend to go way off track and i am like "what?"
anyways, i have tried posting there, but like i said...wayyyy too overwhelming and just hard to keep up. i think they overdo some features.
It's nice to hear I've not been alone in my experience with the sisterhood. Isolated is a good word, though I feel like much of that isolation is self-imposed. I'm just grateful that I've always had gay male friends who loved and respected me and saved me from that miserable lot.
I agree with your take on male and female archetypes, and how very limited the roles are for women. Men seem to be allowed to be themselves and then there's the relationship, whereas the women are almost always created to be relationship focused, or if they aren't, their personality is compromised by the arrival of the lover and they lose what made them interesting in the first place. It's one of the reasons I write: I've never found what I want from women's fiction~ the two exceptions being Angela Carter, who's brilliant, but wrote mostly hetero novels, and Mary Renault, who was another lesbian who loved gay men.
And I agree 1000% with your last point too. Take some time for pleasure and spread that ethic with your politics and I'll bet we could get a little bit further.
PS I LOVE your Roxy pic! Jem and the Holograms was/is an obsession (I still have all my dolls!). I loved Jetta like crazy and wrote all kindsa slash about her. Yum...
She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain~ Louisa May Alcott
As a bi woman with a straight boyfriend, it's not a matter of me actually wanting to be with a gay man (although bisexual men are quite the turn-on), but rather I've found the following -
1) Two guys together is hot, plain and simple, provided it's the right guys. It can be more intense and more fraught with emotion and controversy and passion than hetero pairings because of issues like coming out and homophobia, and I simply like seeing two gorgeous men together better than a man and a woman OR two women when the chemistry is there and it's a well-written story. This also includes imagined slashable pairings like Merlin and Arthur from "Merlin", for example, where the subtext present on the show is enough to imagine and envision the two men together, and whether it's a real pairing or a slash pairing, maybe it's that element of the forbidden that makes it more tantalizing. And it's sexy, and it's hot, and that is actually my main reason for enjoying male-male relationships being portrayed.
2) Unlike the (very few) female-female storylines that are out there, the male-male storylines tend to be richer and written with more complexity and passion, and maybe therein lies the answer. The male storylines are passionate ones. The female-female ones, especially now that we no longer have Xena and Gabrielle, or Willow and Tara/Willow and Kennedy, or anyone from "The L Word" gracing our screens, are simply substandard, written poorly and stereotypically, and lacking in depth and a feeling of realness. I've seen male-male friendships on tv that are so slashable simply because they feel more real and the men involved have more chemistry than some of the female-female relationships I've seen on-screen.
3) Of course, as a queer woman, I also love the elements that speak to my own experiences of queerness, including coming out and homophobia, and they tend to be reflected better in male-male storylines than the rare female-female storylines that show up on television or in film.
4) And as for opposite sex couples, we're so used to the hetero pairings that they're blaise and boring - it's the norm, and the norm is never as exciting as that which is different and perhaps forbidden, as I mentioned above.
But mostly, seeing Captain Jack Harkness kissing Captain Jack Harkness in the "Captain Jack Harkness" episode of "Torchwood" or seeing Kyle Lewis kissing Oliver Fish on "One Life to Live" is just plain hot.
Unlike the (very few) female-female storylines that are out there, the male-male storylines tend to be richer and written with more complexity and passion, and maybe therein lies the answer. The male storylines are passionate ones
^ this pretty much sums it up for me. I also will say i like any couple out there that i can invest in. i just can't get invested in most lesbian stories because the writing sucks and sometimes it just feels so...showy. fake. EH
I try to stay updated with all the letters in LGBT, even the ones that don't seem to be directly related to me as a lesbian. I specifically created an account here b/c 'Glee' doesn't get enough love on AfterEllen. Much of the content on AfterEllen seems either ONLY of interest to lesbians & bisexual women, or it has NOTHING (and I mean nothing) to do with ANYTHING LGBT related. Even though the articles on AfterElton are generally about gay or bisexual men, at the same time I feel that they're written in a way where ANY gay person (or ally) would enjoy reading them.
Definitely tough to choose among answers on the survey, it's just more complex than that! There are a couple of things going on here for me as a straight woman - one is the ally for social justice, the other is the hopeless romantic. I don't need to preach to the choir about why the social justice thing is important, but I'll just say it's something very strong and deep and heartfelt for me, and always bubbling under the surface. Not because I have any close friends or family who are gay, just because it's about equality for my fellow human beings. (Insert Keith Olbermann speech here.) So part of coming here is about that, following gay visibility and portrayals and successes and difficulties from a "how is equality doing today" point of view.
And then there's the whole other thing of sharing a gay sensibility. I'm with the others here who have always felt like a gay man in a woman's body. It's kind of hard to adequately describe, that's just who I identify with. Not that there is one Gay Point of View of course, but as a general thing, I feel most at home here, in the discussions of whatever issue and what issues get discussed. As for m/m pairings, as others have said, it's not about inserting myself in the situation, not about wanting to be with a gay man. It's about identifying with them.
I identify with love being difficult and painful and tentative and elusive. With being different and marginalized and wondering if there is anyone else out there who is "like me." So I really go for the cliched coming out stories and happily ever after stories, because there is such a vulnerability there that I totally identify with, the love is hard to come by and there is such a relief and joy when it is finally found. And though very much on the straight end of things, I'm not a girly girl, so there is also identifying with the dynamics of a m/m relationship, as others have explained.
Well, now that this thread has been around long enough that hardly anyone is probably even checking for new comments, I'll weigh in. :)
I've been involved in slash communities for a good 15 years, so I'm so used to the phenomenon that it doesn't even register, and I've even stopped speculating on the cause. For the most part, I don't even particularly notice the gender of the person talking unless they bring attention to it. And 80% of the time or more, I don't really find gender makes a large difference in the nature of the comments. I'll make a few comments that have occurred to me over the last few days, though. Keep in mind most of the observations come from slash communities, where their stories play out their views in more detail, than actually from AE:
1) One thing that does get to me is the whole "I'm not gay, I'm Fred-sexual." Too many stories I've read with that theme carry a demeaning undertone of "MY BOYS aren't some icky gays." I've noticed a significant overlap in the minority of slash fans who write that, and the minority of slash fans who get upset that icky gay men have invaded what used to be an almost all-girl clubhouse.
Give the number of gay fans who have pored over every frame of Torchwood looking for any possible thing to criticize, I'm surprised that comment from CoE got off relatively lightly, since it's the only thing I actually found offensive, although I chalked it up mostly to Ianto being uncomfortable admitting to himself "I'm bi leaning to straight."
2) I think the idea that male-male relationships are magically equal and don't have power dynamics is a fantasy being projected onto gay men, just as much as any fantasy straight men project onto lesbians. I don't hold that against anyone, lord knows every time I watch a prison flick from Falcon I'm projecting a fantasy onto prison life, but I do think it's important that people recognize it's something in their heads, not reality.
You'll also never convince me that women are slashing Merlin because they think those two characters are equals.
3) It doesn't bother me IN THE SLIGHTEST that women would watch a scene with two men and think it's hot. It doesn't even register as curious for me. But for some reason, this particular phrasing pushes my buttons: "I think the idea of two men together is hot." I think it's because it reduces being gay to a turn-on fetish. "I think role playing is hot." "I think bondage is hot." "I think the idea of two men together is hot." I don't dislike women who say this, but still... it gives me an idea of why many women are uncomfortable when they hear straight men say lesbians are hot.
I feel almost certain that someone has probably said those exact words upthread, and let me assure you I don't remember particular instances, and it's not aimed at you, and I don't count it as a mark against people who say that. It's just something that bugs me. But then, so does the use of "irregardless" or the incorrect usage of "penultimate."
2) I think the idea that male-male relationships are magically equal and don't have power dynamics is a fantasy being projected onto gay men, just as much as any fantasy straight men project onto lesbians.
I don't read slash-fiction but 'common' online-fiction of the erotic kind. I guess they are similar enough.
I think equal might not be the right word here.
It's just that the non-equality and power-dynamics within a male-male relationship does not come from gender-typical behaviour but from individual behaviour.
You can't say: oh yeah, of course he behaves like that because he's a woman - because he isn't. There's no predisposition for gay men to take a certain role in the story and their relationship - solely based on the gender.
Even if the displayed relationship just mirrors a stereotypical straight relationship (and they tend to do that) - if one behaves like "the woman" and the other like "the man" - it's because they individually prefer it like that. Not because they HAVE to want it like that.
We as straight women are traditionally expected to identify with the women, who are traditionally the more passive and weaker characters. You have a problem if you can't identify with them.
In gay male stories we can have the same kind of stories - but we are free to chose.
Roles can be switched, or mixed.
It's more equal in the sense of what can be done with the characters. I don't think it means we think there's general equality between the two men in the storyline or in gay relationships. that would be quite boring :D
I hope that made sense.
But I can understand if gay men feel a bit used - especially if the resulting story has nothing in common with gay relationships in real life.
I'm sorry the phrasing bugs you. I'm one of the ones who said it, and yes, a whole bunch of us did. My daughter hates to hear me say that too. I don't know if it's because she doesn't like that particular phrase or if it just squicks her to hear her mom saying it o_O But what I mean is that I find it arousing and beautiful to watch two men together sexually. Or just kissing, or touching. I think it's lovely. Well, as long as they actually enjoy it, or are at least good enough actors to pretend. (This is why I prefer amateur porn to pro, btw; because I'd rather see less-than-gorgeous people who are really enjoying themselves than a couple of pefect specimens who look bored.)
Personally, it's never bothered me to know that men like to watch women together (and they don't care if the women are lesbians or not). But I totally get why it bugs some people, and I can understand why hearing "men together are hot" bothers some gay men. We all react differently to different things. Me? I hate hate HATE hearing the term "pussy" applied to people who are perceived to be weak. I despise how all things female are equated to weakness in our society. That's MY hot button. Don't even get me on that soapbox, I'll be there all day LOL.
I don't think there's no power dynamic in m/m relationships and sex- far from it! What I appreciate is the fact that m/m relationships and sex in the fiction I've enjoyed doesn't feel the need to belabor the point and to judge you for enjoying it. The first time I had a womon tell me that she loved Baywatch because it made her so angry, I knew I was done with trying to fit into the sisterhood~ let me have my pleasure without having to filter it through my moral outrage! A little joy, if you don't mind!
You're right about the fetishization of m/m sex, though. It's just as reductive as all that 'lesbian' porn for men where the women have long fingernails and lick each other's strap ons. And I too hate 'irregardless'. For real.
She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain~ Louisa May Alcott
I totally hear you on #1. And I agree that it's unlikely for there to be as many men who are "gay/bi only for that one man" as you see in fiction written by women. It's a pet peeve of mine, too. I don't see why somebody can't just say that a character is bi, but didn't realize it until meeting somebody.
As for #2, almost no relationship is without some power dynamic. One partner is usually more powerful in one way, and the other in another way. In real life, there's usually a balance. Between Jack and Ianto, Jack was the leader in some ways. After all, he was Ianto's boss. He was the take charge, call the shots kind of guy. But Ianto also had the power in the relationship. Jack was more emotionally present, more vulnerable in that relationship, because Ianto required it. (At least, that's how I saw it.) But, it was not just assumed that each person would take a specific role. And neither of them was a "proud man who needs to be tamed in order to experience love". There wasn't an expectation for either of them that they could only fall in love if they met somebody stronger or smarter than them. Fictional men are allowed to be their best selves while in a relationship. (By the way, I also appreciated the Gwen/Rhys relationship because it didn't follow silly gender stereotypes.)
Btw, for the record, I really did see Merlin and Arthur as equals when I shipped them, even though they weren't equals in the series. I cannot, in all seriousness, romanticize Merlin being the servant of that silly twit, Arthur.
I totally get your point #3. No relationship should ever be reduced to a description of how it makes an outsider feel. The relationship is about the two people in the relationship. I think when people say that, though, sometimes they're using a shortcut to express the gist of an idea. Yes, I think two cute guys kissing is hot. But, I also think that two guys who are passionately in love is romantic and beautiful. And I believe that all love is beautiful, as long as it is sincere selfless love.
being one of the many that puted in that terms I get that it can sound reductive and ofensive. the thougth did cross my mind after reading some more comments using that exact term.
I'll say many of us, at least me, were just trying to be straigth to the point. Please dont feel objectified!
about the relashionship dynamics lilly answers echos my thougths completely and much more elaborated that I could ever hope for
I understand your point, but given my age and constant battle against an expaning waistline, if anyone (and by that I mean any sentient being with a pulse) wants to objectify me or fetishise what I get up to in bed - well, they need help - I promise you, I'm accepting it as a major compliment.
I've been in the slash community for about seven years. This isn't the first time this question has been posed to me but it is the first time I've thought about articulating it. I think, for me, it has to do with the inherent romanticism associated with m/m or f/f pairings. Much like interracial relationships or May/December romances, etc. there is a sense of societal taboo that brings the romantic storyline more sincerity and depth that you frequently see in traditional WASP-y heterosexual storylines. It's as if these people MUST be in love because they're in this atypical relationship. With the vacuous het relationships being churned out by network television, it's no wonder we seek out alternatives.
On the other hand, it could just be the math. I've always adhered to the idea that if one hot man is good, then two must be better. That's just MATH!
As a lesbian, the thing that makes me wonder most is the fact that lesbians can watch/read m/m and love it, I mean, by most laws of...um, common sense, this would not happen. Then again, thats what I love about nature, it pays no attention to common sense.
I agree with many of the posters here I wish I could have voted for more than one answer. I am very pro gay rights and human rights in general but I had to go with the 'Because I find m/m pairings sexier' option because truthfully that desire was what got me here in the first place.
I empathise enormously with the LGBT community because although I am straight and have never suffered any of the prejudice and discrimination that so many LGBT people do I did grow up feeling odd about myself and ashamed of my sexual inclinations.
From a very young age I felt like I was a boy and if I viewed or read a story I always identified with only male characters. As I got older I also began to be attracted to other different male characters within the same stories and as soon as I was old enough to understand the concept I began to long for these male characters to be together.
I did not know of the existence slash fiction or female slash fans until a few years ago and it has been a wonderfull revelation to me. I sometimes feel bad about liking slash/gay fiction so much more than het because it could be said to be objectifying gay men but I just find it hard to care about m/f relationships in the same way because they are either missing the person I identify with or the person i'm attracted to.
I've never found another female slash fan like me who grew up identifying as male and feeling like they had a male brain stuck inside an alien female body and yet are not attracted to other women but a least now I have other women to share my love of m/m romance with .
(I should point out that I am not a misogynist and love and value my female friendships even more than my guy ones. I often find it harder to relate to women in the first instance and so these frienships are very precious to me )
Thanks :-)
OK, here's what I have to
OK, here's what I have to say -
#1 -
The most important reason why I enjoy male/male pairings is because two sexy men together is just super HOT! I enjoy these pairings way more than male/female pairings. It's just something amazing and very different.
#2 -
I dont agree with the all straight women want to have sex with gay men theory. It isn't true at least for me. I mean, I do have crushes on some gay guys but I dont wish to pine over them or convert them. I know they aren't into me so I just laugh and move on. There are many hot straight guys out there as well so why bother? lol.
#3 -
I'm not a big fan of Adam Lambert first of all. But I did think the photoshoot was beautifully shot. That's all I have to say about it. I didn't find it offensive or anything.
Hard to explain
I suppose there's a lot of reasons why women 'love gay men' and it depends on the woman. theres the superficial reasons; men are hot, two men are hotter. theres also the sense (and this applies pretty much to the entertainment industry only) that is more...exciting, just because we've yet to be desensitised from it. In television there can often be more of a chance for 'drama' which every women loves.
in the broader sense, in terms of friendships i think its just because we can relate. I've been close friends with one of my guy friends for a few years, but after he came out we became so much closer, just because we realised we had so much in common. I also know I can rely on him to tell me the truth about things like how i look etc. I'm more comfortable with him as opposed to my friends who are girls because i know that i can just give him a hug if i want, or ask him if I look weird in certain tops and he won't bat an eyelid. I also love that I can get a male perspective about a whole range of issues without feeling awkward about it.
Another part might be, and this is just speculation, that we're a little jealous of gay men, I mean personally men are sort of a mystery, i can't really understand how they think if you know what i mean. In gay couples I'm jealous that each one knows (more or less) how the other one feels or thinks. also I'm jealous that relationships without traditional gender roles are more achievable.
As for the whole 'vampires= gay thing' i have to say I disagree. I mean certainly vampires to me represent a more fluid and open sexuality but I would say thats about it.
as a gay man i have to say...
it's nice to hear...
finnally the voice of gay man here,thanks,
we love you too:)
We're pretending to be sensitive
After all the intelligent, witty and thoughtful comments from the women on this thread, we're doing the proper gay man 'respectful/sensitive' thing. It's your space and you're the important ones here.
Or we're all hiding behind the sofa in case a fight breaks out or the conversation turns... umm.. gynaecological... If that happens, we're off to the nearest bar. But we'll bring back chocolate ice cream when we come home:-)
Just wanted to echo the sentiments above. The women who come to this site ROCK to the power 10. It'd be such a different - duller - place without all of you. You only have to read this thread to see the truth of that. So thank you.
Yes, a BIG Thank You
Thanks Campion
Funny Darrien!
I was beginning to wonder if maybe you guys just weren't interested in our thoughts! Thanks for saying all those nice things! I for one feel like I know you (& a lot of the other regular posters) really well, reading the comments after every article (I spend WAY too many hours on this site!!)
This was fun!
I agree
I agree with your comment about getting to know the folks who regularly post on AE. I often read something and then think "I can't wait to see what (name) has to say about this."
Darrien...
...this comment made me smile and laugh, so thank you!
You too can be saved by the blog! www.savedbytheblog14.blogspot.com
I may be straight, but I'm not narrow.
Of course, not all women
ofcourse dahlin....
i definitely love our lesbian, bisexual female friends too... it's just i want to extend my gratitude to our straight allies (and i hope there are even straight men around here) who support our cause (lgbt community)...
We love you too!!
I try not to speak for others, but I think it's safe to say the women here love you too!!
You too can be saved by the blog! www.savedbytheblog14.blogspot.com
I may be straight, but I'm not narrow.
:P
I have to echo the general consensus here: I would have picked d) all above for more than one answer. I guess I'm a cheat because I'm 17 :P
I am so, so relieved to know I am not the only one. It definitely isn't a surface-deep fascination.. for me personally, I find more often than not that I can relate to gay men more than... any other 'group.' That makes me some sort of third-generation-breed, in the sense that gay-men are generally thought to relate to women, and I relate to that...
I grew up with an abysmally low opinion of men. (haha, I really don't share this shit anywhere else D:) It stemmed from being objectified or downgraded or abused, in more ways than one, from men. I was always a little attracted to men, but it was blocked by my own stubborn-fire. I felt resentful and just... I felt like all men were on this sky-high pedestal I'd never be able to reach.
Then I dated a girl. That changed me in mind-bending ways. We're all human, and no one is an exception. Girls, I learned, can display the same ignorance and childishness , just in different ways. Not everyone is like this. And then I really started to appreciate men, gay men in partcular. Gay men felt safe, I guess. I quickly got into slash, all that anime yaoi stuff. It was combination of the hotness and the forbidden-factor, but even more significantly to me was the equality I saw in those relationships. That is so, so important to me, and I felt almost masochistic, loving and wanting that so much, but irony is a bitch.
I'm not quite like that now, but gay men have provided me with great role models... they don't have to 'sex it up' and be a total diva. Despite being at the bottom of the social-food chain for so very long, condemned, hurt... broken... in the last few decades gay men (again, I'm so majorly generalising; I know there are total dicks) have shone brighter with more bravery/courage/masculinity than their straight counterparts, who have just been disappointing to me. I have high standards apparently, but is a vocabulary too much to ask?
Just, you guys are such an inspiration to me. Love and harmony and all those cliches that have long been tainted with my own biting cynacism have started to become more attainable, more 'real.'
I also get giddy when I see two guys being fluffy with each other on tv, ngl. I just 'get it.' I'm 17 and ambitious and damnit, I want more gay boys D8
~from NZZZZ
W/R/T your question on Adam Lambert's photo shoot
Modeling
Models are hired to be props, clothes hangers, part of the scenery of a photoshoot.
Any time an actor or a model does a photoshoot they are giving themselves over to the will and vision of the photographer.
That's what they are paid to do. It's their choice for which they are extremely well-compensated.
It is also very, very difficult work and it is no different than what every "Briefs Guy" displayed here on AfterElton does.
The model from this shoot was lovely. She was interviewed about the shoot and she seemed to have a wonderful time working with Adam and the photographer. They both said they had fun.
It feels like there is a lot of projection and undue judgement manifesting here.Hmm
I'm a bisexual woman, and for me it all boils down to this:
I love queer things.
Not just TV and Movies
This phenomenon isn't limited to TV and movies. Gay romance novels written by and for women are hugely popular as well, espeicially in the ebook market. Check out what's available under "gay romance" for Kindle and you'll see a large catalogue of gay cowboys, gay vampires, gay BDSM, gay lovers of all shapes, sizes and historical eras. Many of the authors are ex-slash fanfic writers who've moved into the professional arena in this sub-genre of romance.
While you're at it, google Amber Quill Press's "Allure" imprint, ManLoveRomance, Dreamspinner Press, Loose Id Publishing, Samhain Publishing and several other small, independent publishers for more female-written gay romances. It's a hot trend in the small press section of the publishing industry. if only traditional New York romance publishing (like Harlequin, Avon, St. Martin's and Berkley) would get over its fear of the 'phobic backlash and dip its arthiritic toes into the gay romance waters, they might find an answer to their current marketplace woes.
Thanks for the great article and the nifty poll. Have a great weekend!
Good Grief!
Ask a questiona nd the women come pouring out of the woodwork like the stateroom scene in A Night at the Opera !
I knew a lot of women came to this site, but had no idea just how many.
Women have taken to prowling WeHo these days -- looking for an Adam Lambert and/or Neil Patrick Harris to call their own.
AS IF!
Meanwhile, this old gay man is utterly besotted with Matthew Goode -- with whom I chatted extemsively yesterday at the press event for A Single Man. He's tall, he's gorgeous, he's British, he's brilliant, he's Way Gay-Friendly --
and he's straight.
So I sympathize, ladies -- believe me I sympathize.
It's not the sexual orientation, it's the androgyny.
Expanding on my answer to the last question:
It's hot when women are portrayed as having some "masculine" characteristics (can I get some amens for Aeryn Sun and Kara Thrace?), and men as having some "feminine" characteristics.
GLBT characters tend to break gender steretypes, and therefore tend to be more attractive to me. Ianto Jones is my favorite because he kicks ass and dresses nicely, because he has boy-like attitudes but can be emotionally vulnerable with people he's involved with. If he were a real person, I'd trip him and accidentally fall underneath him with my clothes off.
I'm not a really good writer
I'm not a really good writer and don't usually succeed in making a point (and not being english native speaker doesn't really help) but i'd like to try because this topic concerns me.
I'm a bisexual women of 22 years old. A few years ago some of my friends wondered why I was so into gay stuff (my straight friends I mean), I talked about it to some of my bi and gay friends and we pretty much came up with all the answers discussed here. None of them were really wrong but it didn't explain everything either. Of course 2 guys together are hot just like 2 girls together are, the more there is the best it is. Also I've always been drawn to the cause even before I realized I was really bi. I also like male/male pairing because supposebly guys have a hard time talking about and showing feelings (it's a cliche but what isn't ?) and I relate to that because it's also my case.
Anyway, like I said I never found a good enough reason until someday someone made fun of me saying that I was really a gay guy and hid it from everyone (hey, even if I was, why would I hide it ?!). I really don't know if it sounds weird or not but the more I think about it the more I thnk it's a better reason than any of the others I thought about. What make me think that is that when I see 2 gay guys together (on real life, on TV, on movies or in books) I don't wanna them to be straight or I don't want a threesome with them. I seriously watch them like a straight woman would watch a straight couple and want to be with the guy. Emotionally or sexually speaking I relate to one of the gay guy AS one of the gay guy. I just don't do that with straight couple, for me they're just another story told.
And no, I don't want to change my gender, I never thought about a sex change or anything like that (alright, yes I did, but not seriously, otherwise I don't think I'd consider myself a bi woman). Although I usually don't talk about that too much to guys (or girls for that matter) who I like... it tends to make them run away... go figure.
... I know I'm screwed up...
I completely understand this
I completely understand this - if you're screwed up, I'm right there with you! It's what I meant when I said in my own comment that I sometimes think, bizarrely, that maybe I was a gay man in a previous life, because I feel like I have a gay man inside me. And yet, I have never had any desire to change my sex. I wonder if perhaps this is indeed a real phenomenon, yet another manifestation of human sexuality: women who feel like gay men, like there is a gay man inside them, and yet who don't feel like...men...so it's not true transgenderism (if that's the correct noun).
It's not something I talk about often - or ever, really - with other people either, beyond talking about being attracted to all things gay, but it's there, and I know it. So I totally get what you're saying. I wonder how many women like us are out there?
You're not a screw-up
You're just taking time to understand who you are and why you are. These things aren't fast or easy.
There's no approved 'fast-track' to being an official human being.
So long as you don't have fantasies about raping the crap out of people or abducting children or sniffing pine-scented cleaners (sorry, that's just my personal pet peeve), you're just someone who is taking time to understand what will make your life better.
Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy the journey you're taking to be who you want to be and savour it every step of the way. You can either look at what you're going through as a major problem or you can be grateful that you're being given an experience of human life that most other people don't get.
Please just enjoy the decisions you're making. You'll never have that opportunity again. It may feel painful for you at the moment, but it's a good thing. You're not going to end this experience a a bad person. At the very least you'll be wise. And at best, you'll be an A-bomb in bed :-)
another newbie
first of all Hi! I've been lurking around for a while (since my torchwood fever started) but I only registered now to comment on this topic.
I agree with avery much must of the coments already made. honestly I thank a lot to the internert cause for long I didnt realised that so many women had the same opinion :P
In my case although I consider myselsf straigth I not only think 2 guys are hot together but I actually also think the same about 2 women. and I do like a lot of things (music, books, art, films, ect) that are considered "gay culture".
Anyway I dont like the m/m pairings just because of the hotness factor. in fiction, especially somne genres female characters and gender roles in hetero relashionships are very boring. I hate the typical romantica heroine in constant need of rescue. normally gay relations have more nteresting dinamic.
one think that I think a lot of people assume and that is completely wrong: women having fantsies about turning gay men straigth and about having sex with gay men. that for me is really stupid. do I belive that some women do have that fantasie (for instance some of adam crazy fans) but I think they are a minoraty.
anyway thinking that the fact that straigth men get turned one buy watching 2 women together I dont know whay so many people think the equivalent for straigth woman is strange.
and the vampire thing - wasnt that said by the same lame guy that said famles and gays are distroying science-fiction?
I became interested in
I became interested in male/male relationships in my early teens for one reason only: I found them hot. Since then it's become a bit more complicated. I realised that part of the reason I found this hot in the first place was, as other people here have said, because by having no female characters in the slash fiction I was reading and writing, I avoided being annoyed by the stereotypical representations of women I saw everywhere else. It also allowed me to have certain fantasies that I found uncomfortable if I imagined them with one man and one woman. Exploring my feelings for girls made me want to see same-sex relationships of any kind, lesbian or gay. Then I found out that queer culture is a lot more fun than straight culture, so when I became more politically aware, it seemed natural for me to get involved with queer issues. Hearing the word 'gay' used pejoratively countless times a day at school made me genuinely angry. I read this website mostly just because it is a good, well-written site that's fun to read. The gay perspective does make it more interesting, though, in that it's always good to see points of view that are not necessarily mainstream.
Of course, that first reason does still come to the fore quite often ;]
My two cents
First of all, THANK YOU for asking! I know it's been said already, but the thanks bears repeating because hardly anyone ever asks. Lots of assumptions, not much asking, so this is pretty cool :)
I didn't answer all of the questions, mostly because many of them didn't provide an answer that described me in the least. So I'm summing up here.
I love my gay male friends for the same reason I love my straight male friends, my lesbian friends, my (admittedly few) straight female friends, etc: because I happen to click with those particular people. We get along, we have things in common, we share, we fight, we make up, we help each other out when we need it. End of story.
I follow GLBT news because I'm a passionate advocate of human rights, and there is a war on for GLBT rights right now. Entertainment news? Meh. Don't know, don't care. I don't watch much TV, and the media has mostly not heard of my favorite musicians (barring Radiohead, who they never know what to do with anyway). I have no opinions about Adam Lambert; I'm the only person on the planet who's never watched American Idol and never wanted to. But if I can get OT for a sec, y'all should check out Patrick Wolf. He's a fabulous musician AND fierce for the cause!
I love gay male romance in books, movies, etc for lots of reasons. "It's complicated," LOL. What a perfect answer :) I've always identified more with the male POV, for one thing. No idea why, but there it is. Also, two (or more *g*) men together is hot to me. I'm attracted to men, and I like to watch a good-looking man or ten no matter what they're doing, really. I'll watch surfing or gay porn or just sit on a bench in the park and man-watch, doesn't matter. Men are interesting to me. Straight men are interesting to me too, actually, but to be brutally honest I just don't care to watch/read about women in sexual situations. I don't know why, it just doesn't do it for me. I'll read straight romance, though it's not my favorite; I prefer the relationship dynamic between men. I'm also an author, and I write exclusively gay male romance. Again, it's what interests me. The sex interests me, the relationship dynamic interests me, the way men think and behave intersts me. Also, I suck at writing realistic female characters. My husband would say that's because I'm not a "real girl", LOL.
The vampire thing: I don't know where in the nine hells THAT came from, it's just ridiculous o_O
No, you're not the only one ...
... I've never watched American Idol (or Canadian Idol!) ever either! And just for the record, Adam Lambert leaves me cold! I also agree with what you said about loving men, everything about them. I love just watching them too. And sex scenes between men & women (whether in books or TV, or movies) also leave me cold.
(OMG! I can't stop commenting!)
Add my name to the list
The appeal of American Idol is completely lost on me. Over the years I think I've seen a total of five minutes of the show. I quickly get bored and move on. As for the appeal of Adam Lambert - I don't get that either.
I don't get why people feel
I don't get why people feel the need to analyze this so much. I've been active in writing and reading slash since 2002 and I've seen these questions come up time after time after time. I'm not saying this to tell you to knock it off, I'm saying this because I don't get why people A) think it's so noteworthy that women might like stuff about gay men and B) act like it needs all this study and research.
There's definitely not just one reason, at any rate. There's never any one reason why a group of people like anything. Take football. Some people like it because they care about the sport itself, some people like it because they want to support their state's team, some people like it because they have fun watching games with their friends, some people like it because they think some of the players are hot, some people like it because they're adreneline junkies.
Personally, I like well-written love stories and the gay ones tend to work harder at it than the straight ones. When it comes to slash, sometimes people just see the subtext and the potential without looking for it - that's what happened to me with Sirius and Remus in Harry Potter. I didn't even know there was such a thing as slash and I just got this vibe that they had some type of romantic history with each other.
Why I love gay men/gay male culture
I'm a lesbian, but I've always felt much more strongly identified with gay men and gay male culture, mostly because they're the people who made me feel welcome when I first came out. I live in the midwest and came out when I was in college, circa 1989. There was a Gay/Lesbian group on campus, and a Women's Studies department, both of which I duly joined. Almost to a woman, the wimmin of the lesbian community at the time made me feel completely unwelcome, telling me that since I liked dresses and makeup I must not really be a lesbian, and if I ever wanted to get a mullet and join a softball team then maybe they'd reconsider. On the other hand, the guys took me at my word, said they liked my dresses and makeup, and included me in their far more interesting, yet no less substantive activities (guerrilla filmmaking, AIDS benefit masquerades, etc). I didn't get many dates, but my feelings were at least acknowledged as legitimate, and I felt like a part of the gay community at last.
Things have improved, here and everywhere, but some things don't change, or at least don't change entirely. I find m/m romances to be more full of fun and sex and passion, whereas too much of the w/w stuff is still bogged down in festering oppression (I recently read a lesbian novel where the one and only sex scene was interrupted by a two page lecture on the power dynamic. Thanks). Women ARE oppressed and I do as much work as I can, socially and politically, to change whatever I can; what I've just never understood is why do we have to be so grim and joyless about it? The guys manage to make change and have fun too, and I'll always be grateful to them for showing me that queer life can be good life, and that I can be a part of that.
I'll probably get blasted by other lesbians for this, but you know what? I'm used to it.
She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain~ Louisa May Alcott
As a fellow lesbian, I could
As a fellow lesbian, I could not agree more with your comment.
Although I have never really been active in gay organizations at school (mostly because I went to college at a young age and wasn't out yet) your experience still rings true to me (I went to a women's college so I should know ;P). I don't quite know how to put this, but I feel like lesbians are just...isolated. It seems like gay men have natural allies in straight women and welcome them to the cause whereas lesbians just kind of stick to themselves. One of the reasons I prefer this site to afterellen is that there are so many different kinds of people here and it seems to be pretty much just gay/bi women over there. I like the diversity over here.
What you say about m/m romance vs f/f romance is also totally true. I just feel like so many lesbian storylines fall flat (what few there are). One of the problems is the fact that female characters tend to be poorly written and few in number. I used to be into slash when I was younger (mostly anime stuff). I liked both male and female slash at the time but there simply were never enough cool female characters to make interesting pairings. I had to really stretch it sometimes. So I ended up going with male slash. Honestly, one of the things that made coming out as a lesbian so confusing for me was my interest in male slash--I thought it was weird that I should like it so much if I was a lesbian, because typically it was straight women who liked it because it was sexy. I eventually figured out that I just love all things queer.
Even now when I think about the TV shows I watch, there are just so many more men than women. Take Heroes, for example. If you want to slash women on that show it is pretty much just Claire and Tracy. All of the other women are either very minor characters or dead unless I forgot someone. Compare that to all the men: Peter, Nathan, Matt, Sylar, HRG, Mohinder, Ando and Hiro etc. Particularly in the case of Ando and Hiro who are really close friends--why aren't there more female/female friendships like that on TV? It seems like all too often women exist to be romantic interests for lead male characters. I can't think of many really good female friendships on TV.
I can't even really describe what it is about female characters that irritates me so much. They are just really boring. They don't get to be the goofy comic relief characters, the really socially awkward comic book nerds, the arrogant blowhards who are completely unaware of how ridiculous they are, the guy who thinks he is really slick but is actually a loser. It just seems like there are so many more 'male' character archetypes than female. The roles women get to play are limited. Couple that with the fact that the 'default' sex is always male and you get a limited number of crappy female characters. Sigh.
Finally I totally agree 1000% with your last point. Women need to stop trying so hard to be perfect and trying to make up for thousands of years of inequality in one lifetime and instead concentrate on just enjoying themselves. Who knows, if we all did that then we might actually make some progress!
Female characters on TV ...
Christine and Barb on Old Christine
Being Erica (CBC show in Canada. I think it has been picked up for broadcast in US, but can't remember details. Watch out for it --- it's great!)
Saving Grace
Grey's Anatomy & Private Practice
... just to name a few!
afterellen..
One of the reasons I prefer this site to afterellen is that there are so many different kinds of people here and it seems to be pretty much just gay/bi women over there. I like the diversity over here
^ one reason i prefer this site more than afterellen is because there is wayyyyy too much going on all at once on that site. they have too many video blogs and the comments...omg, always so many and i get overwhelmed very easily. I just can't keep up. i also sometimes realize unlike here, they dont seem to focus on lesbian issues as much..i mean, of course, they do, but sometimes, they tend to go way off track and i am like "what?"
anyways, i have tried posting there, but like i said...wayyyy too overwhelming and just hard to keep up. i think they overdo some features.
Thanks, Fancy
It's nice to hear I've not been alone in my experience with the sisterhood. Isolated is a good word, though I feel like much of that isolation is self-imposed. I'm just grateful that I've always had gay male friends who loved and respected me and saved me from that miserable lot.
I agree with your take on male and female archetypes, and how very limited the roles are for women. Men seem to be allowed to be themselves and then there's the relationship, whereas the women are almost always created to be relationship focused, or if they aren't, their personality is compromised by the arrival of the lover and they lose what made them interesting in the first place. It's one of the reasons I write: I've never found what I want from women's fiction~ the two exceptions being Angela Carter, who's brilliant, but wrote mostly hetero novels, and Mary Renault, who was another lesbian who loved gay men.
And I agree 1000% with your last point too. Take some time for pleasure and spread that ethic with your politics and I'll bet we could get a little bit further.
PS I LOVE your Roxy pic! Jem and the Holograms was/is an obsession (I still have all my dolls!). I loved Jetta like crazy and wrote all kindsa slash about her. Yum...
She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain~ Louisa May Alcott
As a bi woman
As a bi woman with a straight boyfriend, it's not a matter of me actually wanting to be with a gay man (although bisexual men are quite the turn-on), but rather I've found the following -
1) Two guys together is hot, plain and simple, provided it's the right guys. It can be more intense and more fraught with emotion and controversy and passion than hetero pairings because of issues like coming out and homophobia, and I simply like seeing two gorgeous men together better than a man and a woman OR two women when the chemistry is there and it's a well-written story. This also includes imagined slashable pairings like Merlin and Arthur from "Merlin", for example, where the subtext present on the show is enough to imagine and envision the two men together, and whether it's a real pairing or a slash pairing, maybe it's that element of the forbidden that makes it more tantalizing. And it's sexy, and it's hot, and that is actually my main reason for enjoying male-male relationships being portrayed.
2) Unlike the (very few) female-female storylines that are out there, the male-male storylines tend to be richer and written with more complexity and passion, and maybe therein lies the answer. The male storylines are passionate ones. The female-female ones, especially now that we no longer have Xena and Gabrielle, or Willow and Tara/Willow and Kennedy, or anyone from "The L Word" gracing our screens, are simply substandard, written poorly and stereotypically, and lacking in depth and a feeling of realness. I've seen male-male friendships on tv that are so slashable simply because they feel more real and the men involved have more chemistry than some of the female-female relationships I've seen on-screen.
3) Of course, as a queer woman, I also love the elements that speak to my own experiences of queerness, including coming out and homophobia, and they tend to be reflected better in male-male storylines than the rare female-female storylines that show up on television or in film.
4) And as for opposite sex couples, we're so used to the hetero pairings that they're blaise and boring - it's the norm, and the norm is never as exciting as that which is different and perhaps forbidden, as I mentioned above.
But mostly, seeing Captain Jack Harkness kissing Captain Jack Harkness in the "Captain Jack Harkness" episode of "Torchwood" or seeing Kyle Lewis kissing Oliver Fish on "One Life to Live" is just plain hot.
yup.....this sums it up...
Unlike the (very few) female-female storylines that are out there, the male-male storylines tend to be richer and written with more complexity and passion, and maybe therein lies the answer. The male storylines are passionate ones
^ this pretty much sums it up for me. I also will say i like any couple out there that i can invest in. i just can't get invested in most lesbian stories because the writing sucks and sometimes it just feels so...showy. fake. EH
As a lesbian, I'm just a fan of anything 'gay'
Shared sensibilities
Definitely tough to choose among answers on the survey, it's just more complex than that! There are a couple of things going on here for me as a straight woman - one is the ally for social justice, the other is the hopeless romantic. I don't need to preach to the choir about why the social justice thing is important, but I'll just say it's something very strong and deep and heartfelt for me, and always bubbling under the surface. Not because I have any close friends or family who are gay, just because it's about equality for my fellow human beings. (Insert Keith Olbermann speech here.) So part of coming here is about that, following gay visibility and portrayals and successes and difficulties from a "how is equality doing today" point of view.
And then there's the whole other thing of sharing a gay sensibility. I'm with the others here who have always felt like a gay man in a woman's body. It's kind of hard to adequately describe, that's just who I identify with. Not that there is one Gay Point of View of course, but as a general thing, I feel most at home here, in the discussions of whatever issue and what issues get discussed. As for m/m pairings, as others have said, it's not about inserting myself in the situation, not about wanting to be with a gay man. It's about identifying with them.
I identify with love being difficult and painful and tentative and elusive. With being different and marginalized and wondering if there is anyone else out there who is "like me." So I really go for the cliched coming out stories and happily ever after stories, because there is such a vulnerability there that I totally identify with, the love is hard to come by and there is such a relief and joy when it is finally found. And though very much on the straight end of things, I'm not a girly girl, so there is also identifying with the dynamics of a m/m relationship, as others have explained.
Women & Gay Men
Well, now that this thread has been around long enough that hardly anyone is probably even checking for new comments, I'll weigh in. :)
I've been involved in slash communities for a good 15 years, so I'm so used to the phenomenon that it doesn't even register, and I've even stopped speculating on the cause. For the most part, I don't even particularly notice the gender of the person talking unless they bring attention to it. And 80% of the time or more, I don't really find gender makes a large difference in the nature of the comments. I'll make a few comments that have occurred to me over the last few days, though. Keep in mind most of the observations come from slash communities, where their stories play out their views in more detail, than actually from AE:
1) One thing that does get to me is the whole "I'm not gay, I'm Fred-sexual." Too many stories I've read with that theme carry a demeaning undertone of "MY BOYS aren't some icky gays." I've noticed a significant overlap in the minority of slash fans who write that, and the minority of slash fans who get upset that icky gay men have invaded what used to be an almost all-girl clubhouse.
Give the number of gay fans who have pored over every frame of Torchwood looking for any possible thing to criticize, I'm surprised that comment from CoE got off relatively lightly, since it's the only thing I actually found offensive, although I chalked it up mostly to Ianto being uncomfortable admitting to himself "I'm bi leaning to straight."
2) I think the idea that male-male relationships are magically equal and don't have power dynamics is a fantasy being projected onto gay men, just as much as any fantasy straight men project onto lesbians. I don't hold that against anyone, lord knows every time I watch a prison flick from Falcon I'm projecting a fantasy onto prison life, but I do think it's important that people recognize it's something in their heads, not reality.
You'll also never convince me that women are slashing Merlin because they think those two characters are equals.
3) It doesn't bother me IN THE SLIGHTEST that women would watch a scene with two men and think it's hot. It doesn't even register as curious for me. But for some reason, this particular phrasing pushes my buttons: "I think the idea of two men together is hot." I think it's because it reduces being gay to a turn-on fetish. "I think role playing is hot." "I think bondage is hot." "I think the idea of two men together is hot." I don't dislike women who say this, but still... it gives me an idea of why many women are uncomfortable when they hear straight men say lesbians are hot.
I feel almost certain that someone has probably said those exact words upthread, and let me assure you I don't remember particular instances, and it's not aimed at you, and I don't count it as a mark against people who say that. It's just something that bugs me. But then, so does the use of "irregardless" or the incorrect usage of "penultimate."
2) I think the idea that
2) I think the idea that male-male relationships are magically equal and don't have power dynamics is a fantasy being projected onto gay men, just as much as any fantasy straight men project onto lesbians.
I don't read slash-fiction but 'common' online-fiction of the erotic kind. I guess they are similar enough.
I think equal might not be the right word here.
It's just that the non-equality and power-dynamics within a male-male relationship does not come from gender-typical behaviour but from individual behaviour.
You can't say: oh yeah, of course he behaves like that because he's a woman - because he isn't. There's no predisposition for gay men to take a certain role in the story and their relationship - solely based on the gender.
Even if the displayed relationship just mirrors a stereotypical straight relationship (and they tend to do that) - if one behaves like "the woman" and the other like "the man" - it's because they individually prefer it like that. Not because they HAVE to want it like that.
We as straight women are traditionally expected to identify with the women, who are traditionally the more passive and weaker characters. You have a problem if you can't identify with them.
In gay male stories we can have the same kind of stories - but we are free to chose.
Roles can be switched, or mixed.
It's more equal in the sense of what can be done with the characters. I don't think it means we think there's general equality between the two men in the storyline or in gay relationships. that would be quite boring :D
I hope that made sense.
But I can understand if gay men feel a bit used - especially if the resulting story has nothing in common with gay relationships in real life.
Well said
I think you've explained very well the comments on the equity. It's what I meant, and you did a much better job of articulating it than I would have.
FWIW...
I'm sorry the phrasing bugs you. I'm one of the ones who said it, and yes, a whole bunch of us did. My daughter hates to hear me say that too. I don't know if it's because she doesn't like that particular phrase or if it just squicks her to hear her mom saying it o_O But what I mean is that I find it arousing and beautiful to watch two men together sexually. Or just kissing, or touching. I think it's lovely. Well, as long as they actually enjoy it, or are at least good enough actors to pretend. (This is why I prefer amateur porn to pro, btw; because I'd rather see less-than-gorgeous people who are really enjoying themselves than a couple of pefect specimens who look bored.)
Personally, it's never bothered me to know that men like to watch women together (and they don't care if the women are lesbians or not). But I totally get why it bugs some people, and I can understand why hearing "men together are hot" bothers some gay men. We all react differently to different things. Me? I hate hate HATE hearing the term "pussy" applied to people who are perceived to be weak. I despise how all things female are equated to weakness in our society. That's MY hot button. Don't even get me on that soapbox, I'll be there all day LOL.
Men and the Power Dynamic
I don't think there's no power dynamic in m/m relationships and sex- far from it! What I appreciate is the fact that m/m relationships and sex in the fiction I've enjoyed doesn't feel the need to belabor the point and to judge you for enjoying it. The first time I had a womon tell me that she loved Baywatch because it made her so angry, I knew I was done with trying to fit into the sisterhood~ let me have my pleasure without having to filter it through my moral outrage! A little joy, if you don't mind!
You're right about the fetishization of m/m sex, though. It's just as reductive as all that 'lesbian' porn for men where the women have long fingernails and lick each other's strap ons. And I too hate 'irregardless'. For real.
She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain~ Louisa May Alcott
interesting points
I totally hear you on #1. And I agree that it's unlikely for there to be as many men who are "gay/bi only for that one man" as you see in fiction written by women. It's a pet peeve of mine, too. I don't see why somebody can't just say that a character is bi, but didn't realize it until meeting somebody.
As for #2, almost no relationship is without some power dynamic. One partner is usually more powerful in one way, and the other in another way. In real life, there's usually a balance. Between Jack and Ianto, Jack was the leader in some ways. After all, he was Ianto's boss. He was the take charge, call the shots kind of guy. But Ianto also had the power in the relationship. Jack was more emotionally present, more vulnerable in that relationship, because Ianto required it. (At least, that's how I saw it.) But, it was not just assumed that each person would take a specific role. And neither of them was a "proud man who needs to be tamed in order to experience love". There wasn't an expectation for either of them that they could only fall in love if they met somebody stronger or smarter than them. Fictional men are allowed to be their best selves while in a relationship. (By the way, I also appreciated the Gwen/Rhys relationship because it didn't follow silly gender stereotypes.)
Btw, for the record, I really did see Merlin and Arthur as equals when I shipped them, even though they weren't equals in the series. I cannot, in all seriousness, romanticize Merlin being the servant of that silly twit, Arthur.
I totally get your point #3. No relationship should ever be reduced to a description of how it makes an outsider feel. The relationship is about the two people in the relationship. I think when people say that, though, sometimes they're using a shortcut to express the gist of an idea. Yes, I think two cute guys kissing is hot. But, I also think that two guys who are passionately in love is romantic and beautiful. And I believe that all love is beautiful, as long as it is sincere selfless love.
on the hot thing
I'll say many of us, at least me, were just trying to be straigth to the point. Please dont feel objectified!
Oh Dave
My Two Cents
I've been in the slash community for about seven years. This isn't the first time this question has been posed to me but it is the first time I've thought about articulating it. I think, for me, it has to do with the inherent romanticism associated with m/m or f/f pairings. Much like interracial relationships or May/December romances, etc. there is a sense of societal taboo that brings the romantic storyline more sincerity and depth that you frequently see in traditional WASP-y heterosexual storylines. It's as if these people MUST be in love because they're in this atypical relationship. With the vacuous het relationships being churned out by network television, it's no wonder we seek out alternatives.
On the other hand, it could just be the math. I've always adhered to the idea that if one hot man is good, then two must be better. That's just MATH!
hmm
Why M/M ?
I agree with many of the posters here I wish I could have voted for more than one answer. I am very pro gay rights and human rights in general but I had to go with the 'Because I find m/m pairings sexier' option because truthfully that desire was what got me here in the first place.
I empathise enormously with the LGBT community because although I am straight and have never suffered any of the prejudice and discrimination that so many LGBT people do I did grow up feeling odd about myself and ashamed of my sexual inclinations.
From a very young age I felt like I was a boy and if I viewed or read a story I always identified with only male characters. As I got older I also began to be attracted to other different male characters within the same stories and as soon as I was old enough to understand the concept I began to long for these male characters to be together.
I did not know of the existence slash fiction or female slash fans until a few years ago and it has been a wonderfull revelation to me. I sometimes feel bad about liking slash/gay fiction so much more than het because it could be said to be objectifying gay men but I just find it hard to care about m/f relationships in the same way because they are either missing the person I identify with or the person i'm attracted to.
I've never found another female slash fan like me who grew up identifying as male and feeling like they had a male brain stuck inside an alien female body and yet are not attracted to other women but a least now I have other women to share my love of m/m romance with .
(I should point out that I am not a misogynist and love and value my female friendships even more than my guy ones. I often find it harder to relate to women in the first instance and so these frienships are very precious to me )